Starker on 2/5/2023 at 20:50
Notably, Japan didn't surrender after being hit with nuclear weapons. The war council voted for continuing the war. Even as their air force and navy had been almost completely destroyed and US forces were bombing their cities with impunity, even as their merchant fleet had been destroyed and their industry was in tatters so they couldn't get any more fuel or other war materials, they still were determined to fight the US until extinction on the assumption that the Soviet Union would remain neutral and would, for some reason, help them negotiate a peace favourable to them. And this was a war that Japan started. Likewise, Vietnam was bombed to smithereens and back and they never surrendered. Russia knows this. Even if they think they could somehow manage to break the will of Ukrainians, they at least believe that Ukraine will keep fighting as long as it gets support from the West, just as Japan and Vietnam were counting on the support from the Soviet Union.
Furthermore, if Russia starts exterminating Ukrainians with nuclear weapons and blanketing Europe (and the whole world in the long-term) with radioactive fallout, Putin and other high-ranking officials will immediately become a target of assassination and western countries might very well intervene to destroy Russian forces outside Russia. Russia will lose any and all support it has had and become a pariah heretofore not seen in history. They will become North Korea without the backing of China. Hell, China might decide to take a few chunks of territory back while they are at it.
WingedKagouti on 3/5/2023 at 06:12
Quote Posted by Starker
Notably, Japan didn't surrender after being hit with nuclear weapons.
While all that is something historians are aware of, it's not the general tale being told in schools. The story Putin currently seems to be going for (beyond "NATO is threatening Russia with nuclear annihilation") is him having nuclear weapons and not using them, purely by virtue of being a strong but restrained and reasonable leader.
demagogue on 3/5/2023 at 08:42
Russia is apparently going to start deporting Ukrainians soon. I thought that was bad news. A lot of the worst cases of ethnic cleansing started with describing them as "deportations". Hell, speaking of the very land they're fighting in, the Crimean Tartars are textbook example #1. Also in the neighborhood: the Armenians, and before them the Circassians. Who even remembers them now?
Starker on 3/5/2023 at 15:13
Yeah, this is what the Soviets were also doing in occupied territories. In the Baltics, for example, they deported tens of thousands of people and settled hundreds of thousands of ethnic Russians there, significantly changing the demographics of Latvia and Estonia. In my view, deportations like these aren't a start of ethnic cleansing, they are ethnic cleansing.
In a bit brighter news, however, Russia doesn't seem to find support where it hoped to have it:
[video=youtube;6QEXwUqF9Ck]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6QEXwUqF9Ck[/video]
Aja on 3/5/2023 at 15:14
I've been working my way through Timothy Snyder's Yale course, and I am very much in over my head. I've watched lectures 1 to 5 twice (the second time was helpful), but from 6 to 11 I'm getting quite lost -- the guy just namedrops regimes and rulers and dates constantly, and I can't keep up. That's what I get for never taking a history course or reading a history book during my degree. I listened to a few of them with my wife, who does have a history degree, and we had to pause constantly ("So you're saying the orthodox church isn't Catholic?" "What is serfdom exactly?" and so on). It's actually kind of remarkable how he's using a very modern conflict as a pretext for an overview of European history in general, and maybe once I've finished the series and have a few touchstones I can continue learning about specifics that interest me because to be honest, trying to read intro history textbooks is just boring in comparison.
lowenz on 3/5/2023 at 16:44
Quote Posted by WingedKagouti
While all that is something historians are aware of, it's not the general tale being told in schools.
But it's not about the history, it's about russian imperialist ideology about "USA dominance birth": there's no need to be false or true, it's just ideology to feed the war machine and a feverish state in the people ("Now it's our turn to dominate and we can do the same things USA did gaining dominance")
The big problem with power politics is that "real truth" is just a decoration when it happens to be in line with the narration, in the best scenario......
And yes, "restraining in use the nuclear attacks as USA did" has the goal to show Putin as a gentle compassionate leader.....just until something critical conveniently happens.
[video=youtube;upC2YSC9PWw]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upC2YSC9PWw&ab_channel=TheTimesandTheSundayTimes[/video]
How convenient is that,
those damn terrorists.......
Starker on 3/5/2023 at 18:58
I think a more apt comparison would be not with WW2, but with Afghanistan. Russia is not getting a feeling of being a superpower right now. They are being humiliated. Sure they have aspirations of being a superpower, an underdog who will rise and shake up the current world order, but this has hinged on the West being weak and disorganised, democracies being fragile, and the Russian army being at least somewhat equal to other great powers. Nothing has turned out as they had hoped so far.
Tocky on 3/5/2023 at 20:40
Quote Posted by lowenz
How convenient is that,
those damn terrorists.......
Very. I wonder what Putin hopes to buy with his firecracker display. Extra atrocities maybe?
heywood on 4/5/2023 at 11:51
Using nukes would not further the goals of Putin and Xi.
Besides, they aren't in any hurry to end this war, especially Xi.
WingedKagouti on 4/5/2023 at 14:23
Quote Posted by Tocky
Very. I wonder what Putin hopes to buy with his firecracker display. Extra atrocities maybe?
More public support for a higher rate of conscription/mobilization. Also a fabricated excuse for direct assassination attempts on Zelensky's life.