lowenz on 6/3/2023 at 19:23
Quote Posted by Qooper
When you have freedom of expression, you should expect to see a lot of expression you don't agree with. That's the price. But because of this freedom, you're allowed to express your strong opposition to it. You don't win someone by silencing them, but rather offering something better than what they're offering so that others can see their folly and be inspired by what you're offering. That of course requires you to commit to what you believe is good and right, and work hard to bring it into this world.
It's not about "agree / not agree" it's about manipulating on massive scale and play the "victim of censorship" when found.
That's the culprit of the "right" (the "right" is the important part, not the obvious desire to express ourself): being a "right" you expect the state to actually FORCE it so
you can just trick the state to do it with malevolence(sense of) believe DOESN'T follow rationality, it's why it's stupid and childish to think to "better inspire" people with rational thinking when people just want lies, dreams and power fantasies and the "right" of expression is so easily coopted to just BINGE on this until people become drunk and the delirium becomes the truth by consensus.
Qooper on 6/3/2023 at 20:02
Quote Posted by lowenz
(sense of) believe DOESN'T follow rationality, it's why it's stupid and childish to think to "better inspire" people with rational thinking when people just want lies, dreams and power fantasies and the "right" of expression is so easily coopted to just BINGE on this until people become drunk and the delirium becomes the truth by consensus.
Isn't that a bit cynical? I must say I don't agree with you that it's stupid and childish to strive for good and work hard for things that inspire. It's true that many people want easy things and don't necessarily have the patience for good things, but I don't see how that changes anything. I probably come from a very different angle, but I'm face to face with this almost constantly.
I have a game company, and I could take an easy route and I could exploit human psychology to make money. And many gamers would actually be happy with that. But I am stupid and childish, because I want to make something better. I can live with being called stupid and childish, but I can't live with not having the possibility to make something other than crap. So in a way I'm not even doing this FOR other people, I'm doing it because I don't have a choice.
lowenz on 6/3/2023 at 20:19
It's "stupid and childish" because for many people easy=good and not easy=bad (and easy isn't just the opposite of "difficult", it's more like "naturally compliant" )
It's "stupid and childish" because people DOESN'T want a rational solution if there's an emotional one, in fact it's highly irrational to think otherwise (that people not only want but could dodge the call of the instincts for the sake of rational correctness - so the game of the "debate" is rigged in favour of who exploits this ingenuity and the need to make space for it and not only "cold logic" and "sterile arguments" and all the serious things easy to target as "cold" and "sterile" )
Qooper on 6/3/2023 at 21:20
Quote Posted by lowenz
It's "stupid and childish" because for many people easy=good and not easy=bad (and easy isn't just the opposite of "difficult", it's more like "naturally compliant"). It's "stupid and childish" because people DOESN'T want a rational solution
if there's an emotional one, in fact it's highly irrational to think otherwise (that people not only want but could dodge the call of the instincts for the sake of rational correctness - so the game of the "debate" is rigged in favour of who exploits this ingenuity and the need to make space for it and not only "cold logic" and "sterile arguments" and all the serious things easy to target as "cold" and "sterile" )
It seems that it takes only one person to start playing "a game", and this eventually drags everyone else into it too, and now suddenly instead of people doing something actually useful, they're using all their energy to compete and play this pointless "game". It's a waste of time, and my time is precious. This seems to be so in small groups, but it also happens at larger scale, like in politics. When it happens in a small group, I can just leave. But politics is a game that certainly spills into everyone's lives one way or the other. I think of it this way: even though politicians sometimes make my life harder, I can still find ways to keep making things. After all, that's what I care about - making good things, even when there are obstacles. But when politicians make my job impossible... well, at this point we're still far from that. But like I said, I probably approach this from a very different angle than you. I'm not a people person and I don't care which sports team is winning. But regardless of everything, a country is better off having both sides of the political aisle.
EDIT: One quick point I want to make.
Quote:
It's "stupid and childish" because people DOESN'T want a rational solution if there's an emotional one, in fact it's highly irrational to think otherwise (that people not only want but could dodge the call of the instincts for the sake of rational correctness
Is it highly irrational? You're making the assumption that people are driven by instincts. What does that even mean? You seem to believe in this strongly. And you say people. Do you mean the majority of people? Or everyone?
baeuchlein on 6/3/2023 at 23:14
Since I usually go for rational solutions if these suit me better than emotional ones, I guess there's at least one being who's not driven purely by instinct.
Anarchic Fox on 7/3/2023 at 03:42
When confronted with the extreme views of modern conservatism, it's natural to try to exercise one's empathy to understand why these views exists. But I think this is a much harder task than most people realize. I get the impression that Lowenz tries to find such insights into the conservative worldview, but with mixed success and a hefty amount of over-generalization.
This is not to say that one shouldn't try to find those insights. Doing so is better than the quietism to which I default.
lowenz on 7/3/2023 at 16:57
Quote Posted by Anarchic Fox
When confronted with the extreme views of modern conservatism
Exactly
These are the product of "democracy" and "rule of law": give people freedom of speech and
so the state can claim the people FREELY support new punishments for speaking too! So it can enact violence in perfect clean and crystalline way!
[video=youtube;3_a4BAXezqU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_a4BAXezqU&ab_channel=DWNews[/video]
"
We send you in prison for 15 years because we love our people and it's the people asking us to punish you, you traitorous monster! You D-E-G-E-N-E-R-A-T-E (classic Peterson)".
Freedoms given "by right" (=by the state) are just perfect traps.
I'm not talking about freedom as an ovbious aspiration of each individual, but as a constitutional right, as a tool not only intended to help people but to bind them to a
design, a (political) project.
lowenz on 7/3/2023 at 17:01
Quote Posted by Qooper
Is it highly irrational? You're making the assumption that people are driven by instincts. What does that even mean? You seem to believe in this strongly. And you say people. Do you mean the majority of people? Or everyone?
I say *everyone* in
bad situations (such as the war).
Because it's the natural answer of our brain (and the brain is not "logic").
Starker on 10/3/2023 at 06:53
In what constitutes a yet another act of senseless barbarism, a video has surfaced of an unarmed prisoner of war being executed by Russian soldiers. His last words were, "Glory to Ukraine," shortly before he was repeatedly shot and killed.
Quote:
(
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuremberg_principles)
[...]
The crimes hereinafter set out are punishable as crimes under international law:
(a) Crimes against peace:
(i) Planning, preparation, initiation or waging of a war of aggression or a war in violation of international treaties, agreements or assurances;
(ii) Participation in a common plan or conspiracy for the accomplishment of any of the acts mentioned under (i).
(b) War crimes:
Violations of the laws or customs of war which include, but are not limited to, murder, ill-treatment or deportation to slave labor or for any other purpose of civilian population of or in occupied territory; murder or ill-treatment of prisoners of war or persons on the Seas, killing of hostages, plunder of public or private property, wanton destruction of cities, towns, or villages, or devastation not justified by military necessity.
(c) Crimes against humanity:
Murder, extermination, enslavement, deportation and other inhumane acts done against any civilian population, or persecutions on political, racial, or religious grounds, when such acts are done or such persecutions are carried on in execution of or in connection with any crime against peace or any war crime.
[...]
With the theft and torture of Ukrainian children, indiscriminate missile attacks on Ukrainian cities, and executions of civilians carried out in Russian occupied territories, Russia seems to be trying to tick all the boxes as thoroughly as they can so far.
lowenz on 10/3/2023 at 07:14
Russia is just being Russia, it's not barbarism it's "we have the right to do so, just like America" (.....BECAUSE EMPIRE CAN, WE JUST WANT TO BE LIKE YOU)
When you have the "empire mindset" the "protection of people" allows to kill how much people you want (because you're protecting them from "dangers" and those deaths are just an unfortunate byproduct of "good will"), that's what they believe, and they REALLY believe this (remember Marx and what "ideology" properly is in Marx vision, it's NOT "theory" like today we think but "false coscience to justify exertion"): of course the reality is the mindless killing of thousands.....and millions too because as I've said the elite KNOWS this and it can just make another autoabsolution step and use the nuclear fire to "stop the killing!!1111" they've started.
So more deaths=more probability of a nuclear war (in fact more deaths can be retrointerpretated as a necessary step to do the final escalation, it's why I call them "sacrifice to nuclear god", it works just like propitiatory sacrifices being the soldiers the "willing offers" )
