DaveW on 30/10/2007 at 16:59
Quote Posted by Dr. Dumb_lunatic
In this case, saying "They all ironically reference the title Deus ex" is not a terribly accurate statement, since there is unlikely to be any irony: all of the endings employ deus ex machina endings quite deliberately. It would be ironic if this were unintentional, but it's clearly not.
Having D.E.M. endings in a game called "deus ex" might well be foreshadowing, sure (almost definitely is, in fact). But not irony.
We have a winner. It's not ironic (or it's certainly not the right term to use) if it's an
intentional reference to the title.
Silkworm on 30/10/2007 at 17:06
Quote Posted by Dr. Dumb_lunatic
Deus ex machina is more commonly used NOW to refer to an ostensibly unlikely plot device which resolves the situation. It doesn't have to involve gods, or machines. Or even greeks inside machines pretending to be gods, if we're being incredibly literal.
All of the endings resolve a fairly complicated and extremely dangerous situation with a "Just do this, and there you go" style ending:
Helios: it's ok! Robodictator is here to sort everything out!
Illuminati: it's ok! It's was just a passing phase, everything's back to normal!
Tong: it's ok! We're living in villages, now! Hooray!
See?
I guess they didn't require literature classes in your highschool either...
Sorry, no, none of the endings in Deus Ex are "Deus Ex Machina's" by ANY DEFINITION of the phrase. An example of that type of ending would be JC Waking up before his UNATCO ceremony saying "it was all a dream." Deus Ex Machina endings are *BAD* endings, they're primitive literary cliches by definition.
With your ridiculously open definition any plot whose conflict is resolved would be a Deus Ex Machina! All conflict resolution is "ostensibly unlikely," resolving difficult issues is always difficult.
When I refer to "Gods" and "machines" I'm talking about the in-game mixed metaphors.
Matthew on 30/10/2007 at 17:12
Quote Posted by Dr. Dumb_lunatic
So what am I supposed to do with these thousand spoons now?
I'll trade you for this knife I just found.
Papy on 30/10/2007 at 17:14
Quote Posted by DaveW
It's not irony if it's intentional.
Quote Posted by DaveW
We have a winner. It's not ironic (or it's certainly not the right term to use) if it's an
intentional reference to the title.
Could you refrain from posting the same thing twice? This is annoying.
Dr. Dumb_lunatic on 30/10/2007 at 17:33
Quote Posted by Silkworm
Sorry, no, none of the endings in Deus Ex are "Deus Ex Machina's" by ANY DEFINITION of the phrase.
Wait, not even the one where you basically
become a god and sort everything out?
Look, you're more than entitled to have your own, INCREDIBLY PRECISE AND EXCLUSIVE definition of what actually qualifies as a D.E.M., that's fine. But that doesn't make it the only definition, or even the generally accepted one.
I think a reasonable number of people would accept that solving a plague, removing a dictator, and ending world chaos by "suddenly forming a giant human/AI hybrid entity with the ability to manipulate global events" would qualify, wouldn't you?
DaveW on 30/10/2007 at 17:43
For it to be ironic you have to take D.E.M. as completely literal.
In which case the only irony is that there are no gods in Deus Ex.
Silkworm on 30/10/2007 at 17:44
Quote Posted by DaveW
We have a winner. It's not ironic (or it's certainly not the right term to use) if it's an
intentional reference to the title.
Irony is a literary device, like any other literary device it is *always* intentional. The author makes a deliberate attempt to have some part of the piece (character, setting, title, plot) be incongruous with the overarching theme.
For example, a story of an arsonist who sets fire to a Fire Station after calling in a false fire report. The show "Six Feet Under" reveled in the irony of life in a funeral home. In that example the writers knew very well what the title of the show was.
Silkworm on 30/10/2007 at 17:55
Quote Posted by Dr. Dumb_lunatic
Wait, not even the one where you basically
become a god and sort everything out?
No. Absolutely not. I mean it is a very twisted and ironic sense, that you really think a mechanical dictator could "improve" people's lives, and that you think humanity would be better off under an iron omnipresent fist. But anyone who takes ANY of the endings at
face value is clearly too stupid to understand any of the other plot elements.
Quote Posted by Dr. Dumb_lunatic
Look, you're more than entitled to have your own, INCREDIBLY PRECISE AND EXCLUSIVE definition of what actually qualifies as a D.E.M., that's fine. But that doesn't make it the only definition, or even the generally accepted one.
Wrong. My definition is exactly as "precise" and "exclusive" as my definition of irony, or my definition of foreshadowing, or "dialog." That is to say it's the one that is useful for discussing literature, because its agreed on by many literary critics, and it's the one your taught in any literature course.
Or more simply, its the right definition.
Quote Posted by Dr. Dumb_lunatic
I think a reasonable number of people would accept that solving a plague, removing a dictator, and ending world chaos by "suddenly forming a giant human/AI hybrid entity with the ability to manipulate global events" would qualify, wouldn't you?
No.
But you would be wrong anyway, because none of the endings actually show you doing those things. All of the Deus Ex endings are open ended, and could certainly cause more problems than they solve. Depending on your judgments and beliefs, the Helios situation might be simply a continuation of the same conflict (Why is a dictator of metal and silicon better/worse than a dictator of carbon and water?). Many people think Tong's ending is suicidal and stupid, and wouldn't solve the core issues. The Illuminati ending has the same properties.
If an ending is open ended and open to interpretation/speculation, or has different meanings based on people's values than by definition it's not a "Deus Ex Machina." Certainly none of the endings in Deus Ex are the everybody-lives-happily-ever-after type.
Pyrian on 31/10/2007 at 04:21
A "Deus Ex Machina" ending is one that does not follow from its setup - it's considered a flaw. Generally, something outside the scope of the story steps in and resolves everything.
In the Deus Ex Helios ending, you have the literal meaning of Deus Ex Machina - god from the machine - but exactly the opposite of a "Deus Ex Machina" in storytelling terms, since the machine and its godlike status are not stepping in from outside the story, but are instead one of the main focuses of the story. (Plus, if you accept the sequel as canon, it doesn't really solve much of anything in Deus Ex.)
None of those statements are reasonably contestable. So, yesss, that is irony.
...I have to note, DDL is weirdly consistent in claiming that the various Deus Ex endings somehow don't follow from the story. Way the heck off base, but consistent nonetheless. I mean, seriously, do we have to point out to him the ways in which the main ending of Deus Ex was foreshadowed throughout the plot? Judging by his reaction to the same principles with Tong, I don't think that sort of discussion is going to get through. He seems to have some sort of weird blindspot to a basic storytelling technique.
I wonder if he read Stephen King's The Eyes of the Dragon and thought, "Those napkins saving the Prince came out of nowhere"?
Matthew on 31/10/2007 at 09:46
I am lolling that of the two threads, this is the only active one at the moment.
