Silkworm on 29/10/2007 at 00:44
Actually ALL of the endings in Deus Ex are fantastic, they all "fit" the overarching themes of the chracters you side with, in a way, they are all positive. They also all ironically reference the title "Deus Ex."
Note - this isn't a pointless comment but I thought Dave's bewildering next comment should at least have some reference - D'JK
Dr. Dumb_lunatic on 30/10/2007 at 10:53
Quote Posted by Silkworm
Wow.
Did they require English in your Highschool? Irony is a literary device, that's like saying "its not foreshadowing if its intentional"
No, I think he means that (for example) someone could say something earnest that turns out to be incredibly ironic...and that would be ok, but if someone deliberately says something intended to sound LOL IRONIC then it's not the same thing.
To quote wikipedia:
Quote:
Irony is a literary or rhetorical device, in which there is a gap or incongruity between what a speaker or a writer says and what is generally understood
In other words, situations where the writer's actual understanding, and the "general understanding" are both the same, but the writer is writing AS IF THEY WEREN'T...it's not really irony. Nor is it irony if the writer is writing exactly according to the general understanding. Then it's just..writing, I guess.
Or something.
In this case, saying "They all ironically reference the title Deus ex" is not a terribly accurate statement, since there is unlikely to be any irony: all of the endings employ deus ex machina endings quite deliberately. It would be ironic if this were unintentional, but it's clearly not.
Having D.E.M. endings in a game called "deus ex" might well be foreshadowing, sure (almost definitely is, in fact). But not irony.
DarkThiefsie on 30/10/2007 at 11:16
lol sorry
your name amuses me :P "Dumb Lunatic"
:laff:
....
sorry
Papy on 30/10/2007 at 13:23
Dr. Dumb_lunatic : So you think it's generally understood that the title of a game should refer to its ending?
Silkworm on 30/10/2007 at 13:51
Quote Posted by Dr. Dumb_lunatic
In this case, saying "They all ironically reference the title Deus ex" is not a terribly accurate statement, since there is unlikely to be any irony: all of the endings employ deus ex machina endings quite deliberately. It would be ironic if this were unintentional, but it's clearly not.
Having D.E.M. endings in a game called "deus ex" might well be foreshadowing, sure (almost definitely is, in fact). But not irony.
Wrong. Deus Ex Machina refers to the latin phrase "god from the machine" - often used in Greek literature as a plot device where the situations are quickly tied up by a benevolent god who rescues the character from harm and immediately resolves all conflicts.
NONE of the endings to Deus Ex are "Deus Ex Machina's" even though they all involve gods and machines - and that's what's so ironic.
Helios: God from the Machine creates new problems, and is in fact the enemy the protagonist fights the whole game.
Tong: God by destroying the machine, also creates a whole new set of problems, very open ended
Illuminati: God from the people, using the machines to rescue them from the virus - once again open ended and open to interpretation.
Dr. Dumb_lunatic on 30/10/2007 at 14:58
Quote Posted by Silkworm
Wrong. Deus Ex Machina refers to the latin phrase "god from the machine" - often used in Greek literature as a plot device where the situations are quickly tied up by a benevolent god who rescues the character from harm and immediately resolves all conflicts.
NONE of the endings to Deus Ex are "Deus Ex Machina's" even though they all involve gods and machines - and that's what's so ironic.
Helios: God from the Machine creates new problems, and is in fact the enemy the protagonist fights the whole game.
Tong: God by destroying the machine, also creates a whole new set of problems, very open ended
Illuminati: God from the people, using the machines to rescue them from the virus - once again open ended and open to interpretation.
See that basically reads like "I choose to interpret it this very specific way which makes me correct and you wrong, so *PTHBTHTBTHTTBTHT*!"
Deus ex machina is more commonly used NOW to refer to an ostensibly unlikely plot device which resolves the situation. It doesn't have to involve gods, or machines. Or even greeks inside machines pretending to be gods, if we're being incredibly literal.
All of the endings resolve a fairly complicated and extremely dangerous situation with a "Just do this, and there you go" style ending:
Helios: it's ok! Robodictator is here to sort everything out!
Illuminati: it's ok! It's was just a passing phase, everything's back to normal!
Tong: it's ok! We're living in villages, now! Hooray!
See?
Papy: what? Where did I say that? Confused. One specific game does not a "generally understood" trend make. It's generally understood for THIS SPECIFIC GAME, sure. But at no point did I suggest this was a general "all games" phenomenon.
Papy on 30/10/2007 at 15:58
Quote Posted by Dr. Dumb_lunatic
See that basically reads like "I choose to interpret it this very specific way which makes me correct and you wrong, so *PTHBTHTBTHTTBTHT*!"
Basically, Silkworm found something ironic without exactly saying why, and you chose a specific case where what he said was wrong (even if it was not your goal). He then explain what exactly
he found ironic, and you then imply he should use your own interpretation and not his?
One of the main idea behind irony, is that what is expected is not what it really is. As different persons can expect different things, irony is mostly a matter of personal opinion. If someone find something ironic, you could argue that he or she should not expect something in particular, but you cannot argue that it is not irony. When it rains on your wedding day, it is irony for some people.
Matthew on 30/10/2007 at 16:05
As, indeed, is a death row pardon, two minutes too late.
Dr. Dumb_lunatic on 30/10/2007 at 16:14
So what am I supposed to do with these thousand spoons now?
Papy on 30/10/2007 at 16:45
Now it's me who don't get it. I obviously lack the cultural reference to those spoons.
