jay pettitt on 5/4/2013 at 12:28
Quote Posted by henke
Oh yes I'd agree with that. I can't recall any of the areas in DX:HR as clearly as the UNATCO headquarters, Hell's Kitchen, or Battery Park from the first game. (though honestly I've played through DX three times and DXHR only once, so that defenitely factors in) But what I was talking about when I said that DXHR not only felt like a good game but a
good Deus Ex game is that, as I was walking through the streets of Detroit I felt a sensation I hadn't felt since walking around in Deus Ex's Hell's Kitchen. I can't quite explain it, it just had that certain je ne sais quoi. I dare not hope for a similar miracle from Thief, but I'm hoping that it'll at least be a good stealth game.
So what do you think is going on there. Are we getting older, or is there more to it?
I'd be happy to plump with the getting older explanation - except that the indie scene just keeps coming up with stuff that chimes.
So recently I'm more wondering whether there's some psychology at play. Whether the technical limitations of yesteryear played to the advantage of games by making players' imaginations work harder to fill in the detail with the end result being a less passive, more resonant and affecting experience.
demagogue on 5/4/2013 at 13:05
There was something in the design of Deus Ex 1 where it almost made characters of the locations and had the player doing things in them just to bring out their "personalities" in a way that DX:HR didn't, and HR just had you always going on to your next objective without much opportunity to take in the location as its own place. I mean they were beautiful to walk around and look at, but you didn't do things that brought out their personality.
But this was different than the levels in T1-T3 too, which were one-off self-contained missions with little mini-stories for each one that did half the job. Now that T4 is apparently going for an open city design though, maybe it should take notes from Deus Ex 1 and not run too quickly over featuring locations like DX:HR.
jay pettitt on 5/4/2013 at 13:14
Damnit I'm busy busy this afternoon and eve - and I'd really like to discuss these things. But I'll start a thread anyhow.
jtr7 on 5/4/2013 at 13:18
From the time Ken Levine was on the LGS team, they strove to create a sense that the world was bigger, and they did it in so many ways successfully. Somehow, even with the extremely empty and uninhabited spaces they couldn't fill due to tech limits, there was a sense that something else was happening wherever I go, just beyond the walls, the spectres of the past, the history going back back back. The sense of more then could be sensed with the eyes and ears was palpable. I don't know how they did it, but TDS somehow doesn't have it so strongly, excluding the utter lack of conversations and readables about other places. That world and its untold history, sentient rocks and plants, necromantic scourge, elementalism, and unseen city Quarters and Wardens, holds more interest for me than ever, especially not being able to play the dang game, but now those things are being replaced, revised, wiped away, and because they hold the copyright, I doubt we'll ever see the archived goodies we've almost all wanted to see/hear at some point.
Springheel on 5/4/2013 at 16:34
Quote:
Matter of opinion really. The thought of Garrett being quick, smooth, and silent enough isn't well beyond the pale.
He's smooth enough to
take the earrings out of someone's ear without them noticing?? What's next? Stripping them down to their skivvies like in Skyrim? It certainly sounds silly to me but YMMV.
Quote:
"Even if he is capable of slaughtering every guard in a level"
You could do that in every previous Thief game. The matter isn't if you can or can't, it's how difficult it is to pull off. If it's too easy, EM dropped the ball.
You could, yes, but was that an intentional design decision or the fault of exploiting limited AI? Based on the way the game was described, I assume the latter. You could also run full speed down hallways and KO guards by hitting them in the toe, but I don't think that was the intention either and it would be pretty silly if they built that into a modern Thief because it was possible in the old games.
Quote:
Though I'm still hoping for an oldschool difficulty setting that requires you not to kill any guards whatsoever.
Well, as you know from our early TDM discussions, I strongly dislike artificial restrictions like that. Players should avoid killing guards because it's difficult and lowers their overall chance of success, not just because it's a preset fail condition.
I get that they're trying to appeal to non-stealth gamers as well, but you know what they say about trying to please everyone.
Quote:
"Garrett's newfound agility and his collapsible bow ... will make him a less subtle knife in the dark at times,"
An agile Garrett is nothing but good news, so long as they don't go absolutely insane with it. And the collapsible bow bit, less subtle knife? I took that as meaning he's more easily spotted with his bow out, much like the old games.
I don't know how greater agility would make him more easily spotted. I took it to mean that his approach to adversity is less subtle, with his new wall-running and zooming (or is it whooshing?) abilities. But it is hard to know what is meant there.
Quote:
Who crapped on TDM? When did this happen?
For the record, I didn't interpret anything that way either.
pavlovscat on 5/4/2013 at 16:45
Quote Posted by jay pettitt
So recently I'm more wondering whether there's some psychology at play. Whether the technical limitations of yesteryear played to the advantage of games by making players' imaginations work harder to fill in the detail with the end result being a less passive, more resonant and affecting experience.
I absolutely believe this. It's happened with movies as well. You have all this cool technology to create beautiful visuals so you don't have to imagine anything. A good story line comes in far behind pretty pictures. I think of the trend in modern gaming (and movies) as the elimination of players' need for imagination. I look at my friends' and family's kids and realize that most have little ability to entertain themselves without a tv, phone, gaming console or pc.
Renzatic on 5/4/2013 at 17:21
Quote Posted by Springheel
He's smooth enough to
take the earrings out of someone's ear without them noticing?? What's next? Stripping them down to their skivvies like in Skyrim? It certainly sounds silly to me but YMMV.
Eh, it depends on how you look at it. Garrett was nearly supernaturally smooth and quiet in even the previous Thief games. Being light fingered enough you can unsnap someones earring and lightly remove it from their ear isn't so far beyond the realm of possibility it can't be done. You just have to be really, really good.
Quote:
You could, yes, but was that an intentional design decision or the fault of exploiting limited AI? Based on the way the game was described, I assume the latter. You could also run full speed down hallways and KO guards by hitting them in the toe, but I don't think that was the intention either and it would be pretty silly if they built that into a modern Thief because it was possible in the old games.
I get that they're trying to appeal to non-stealth gamers as well, but you know what they say about trying to please everyone.
TWO FOR ONE REPLY! It all depends on how it's done. The developers said (and yeah, they could say anything) that even the most aggressive players will
have to rely on stealth. No one can just run into a building full of guards and start hacking his ways down the hallways until only Garrett's standing. It sounds more like a player would have to be that much more patient if they want to kill every single person in a mission.
It sounds less like "yeah, you can" and more "well, you
could, but...". Being sneaky is the way the game is meant to be played, and being as quiet as possible is the best outcome that's most rewarded. Just because you can doesn't mean the game is dumbed down at all. I mean you
can kill everyone in a mission in TDM, too. It's not easy, but it
can be done.
Quote:
Well, as you know from our early TDM discussions, I strongly dislike artificial restrictions like that. Players should avoid killing guards because it's difficult and lowers their overall chance of success, not just because it's a preset fail condition.
Hmm. Good point. Though from what I've heard in one of the interviews, it does sound like killing guards makes it more difficult to achieve your goals, so at least you've got that.
Really, I don't think the question of the game being a flat out action fest is the intentions of the developers. But it all depends on how they've implemented all their gameplay features. It might not be their intentions, but if it's super easy to be a super violent assassin, then it doesn't matter. It's too easy.
Quote:
I don't know how greater agility would make him more easily spotted. I took it to mean that his approach to adversity is less subtle, with his new wall-running and zooming (or is it whooshing?) abilities. But it is hard to know what is meant there.
I take greater agility as meaning he's lighter on his feet and much more graceful. Able to leap a little farther, jump up, grab a ledge, and lift himself up quickly and easily. Being able to roll between shadows, dodge around, and just generally be quick as hell. As long as it's not overdone, like he's flipping cartwheels everywhere he goes and spazzing out with some overly ornate move everytime he scratches his ass, then it'd make more sense to me.
Like I said, Garrett's a well trained cat burglar. He'd be quick and silent.
Tomi on 5/4/2013 at 17:22
Quote Posted by thiefessa
You have to be using focus for these moves afaik.
For the third person takedown moves, or the first person fighting moves as seen in the screenshot before?
I probably don't mind too much seeing some third person action every now and then, but I would love it if it was possible to play the whole game in first person only. Sounds like this "old school mode" is our only hope for that... or perhaps Thief 4 can be somehow modded, I suppose that's a possibility too.
Tomi on 5/4/2013 at 17:46
Quote Posted by Springheel
He's smooth enough to
take the earrings out of someone's ear without them noticing?? What's next? Stripping them down to their skivvies like in Skyrim? It certainly sounds silly to me but YMMV.
Garrett is also able to hide in the tiniest of shadows, so that the guards won't notice a thing even if he's right under their nose. Taking the earrings out of someone's ear if
of course a bit over the top, but is it really
totally unrealistic? I don't think so. You would be surprised at how good some pickpockets are at stealing stuff in real life. Anyway, Garrett has always been doing over-the-top things, and I find that pretty cool as long as there's nothing outrageously silly. (I was going to mention "like if Garrett could fly" as an example, but then I remembered the slow-fall potions...)
Quote:
You could, yes, but was that an intentional design decision or the fault of exploiting limited AI? Based on the way the game was described, I assume the latter. You could also run full speed down hallways and KO guards by hitting them in the toe, but I don't think that was the intention either and it would be pretty silly if they built that into a modern Thief because it was possible in the old games.
The old games gave the player plenty of different kind of tools and weapons to get rid of the enemies in numerous nasty ways, so isn't that an obvious sign that a violent approach was an intentional design decision? All the hands-on articles and official releases so far have stated that the new Thief is still all about stealth, but as in the previous games, you got to be prepared on combat situations as well and how to deal with them - hopefully not by hitting the quickload key this time!
Quote:
Well, as you know from our early TDM discussions, I strongly dislike artificial restrictions like that. Players should avoid killing guards because it's difficult and lowers their overall chance of success, not just because it's a preset fail condition.
Totally agree with this though, but sadly I'm not holding my breath on this. I was always dreaming of exciting sword duels with the guards in original Thief, but the combat system wasn't good enough for that. And I find that a bit frustrating because it
could have been so much more fun, why did they even bother adding the "block" move when it seems to be almost useless? (genuine question: does anyone ever actually use it?) It's always easy enough to just outrun your enemies, or run rings around them and whack them in the head with anything that you can get your hands on until they fall down. I think it'd be really awesome if the guards were smart enough to confront you so that you just had to fight with them (which would mean that you've failed badly at being stealthy), and it'd be challenging and fun at the same time. I suppose I'm going a bit off-topic here now though...
