Goldmoon Dawn on 5/10/2017 at 22:27

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There are so many different types of Americans, there isnt one definitive kind. From Milwaukee down to Chicago and all the little places in between, I see so many different types of people, and this whole "Americans are scared and violent" doesnt represent our population. Most folks that keep the country running are excellent hardworking people.

Americans are free to be as different from each other as they want. That concept is one of the main reasons America is so awesome. There is no normal in the "melting pot". In my daily life, I see people from many different countries, all working together, daily, peacefully, it just never ends with this BS. I live right next to the worst crime rate in America, and I see the people of America, not scared or violent, but I do see them slowly waking up though...

I get a little confused when people start to generalize "Americans", especially during topics like this. What "Americans" are you referring to? Are you speaking of the "Americans" of the world stage and in the media? Our government does whatever the fuck it wants, with very little regard to anyone, especially its own voters. What the US government does on the world stage does *NOT* represent the lives, attitudes, hopes, and dreams of the everyday working people of America that are forced to fund this whole charade.

catbarf on 6/10/2017 at 02:08

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Yeah, I know the type. I strongly dislike those people for a number of reasons. Thankfully they're an obnoxious minority. As much as I'd like to regulate open carry to make those obnoxious people stop being obnoxious, the issue is that keeping open carry on the books prevents a lot of stupidity from impacting responsible concealed carriers, like getting cited because your shirt rides up and suddenly you're 'open carrying'.



If you look at those studies, you'll notice these sorts of phrases in their abstracts.





So yes, if you control for every factor besides firearm availability, then firearm availability affects firearm homicide rate. I wasn't denying that. My point is that factors like poverty, urbanization, and unemployment demonstrably have a far greater effect, and if you just look at our stats for a country as a whole you miss that our problem with gun violence is overwhelmingly concentrated in urban areas where guns are already hard to get, whereas in more rural areas where guns are everywhere our crime rate is downright European. Which is why we see that New Hampshire, Vermont, Oregon, and Idaho, four states with some of the laxest gun control legislation and highest rates of firearm ownership, also have some of the lowest crime and in particular homicide rates in the country. In spite of its extremely high firearm ownership rate, New Hampshire is (https://mises.org/blog/few-gun-laws-new-hampshire-safer-canada) safer than Canada. Clearly the sheer availability of firearms is not the driving factor here, so going after legally-owned firearms (disproportionately concentrated in the areas of the country where they're not being used to commit crimes) is at best indirectly treating the symptoms rather than addressing the actual cause.

I'd much rather spend our effort on statistically significant factors in gun crime (eg handguns, straw purchase), the root social issues that lead to gun violence in the first place, and the seriousness of our appalling suicide rate, than waste effort with partisan fighting over assault weapons and gun shows that primarily seems to be about Making A Statement rather than addressing the problem.

Pyrian on 6/10/2017 at 03:36

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In general you'll find that the politicians opposed to gun control are also opposed to any other pro-active measures, as well. For them, it's just a convenient distraction.

Gryzemuis on 6/10/2017 at 06:45

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I know America is a big country. I've mostly been in California (Silicon Valley). I've been a few times for a week in Washington DC and in North-Carolina. And I've visited other places (LA, Florida, Minneapolis, Memphis, etc). I know there is a huge difference between the two Coasts and everything in between.

The people I used to work with (collegues, customers) were all highly educated people, with very good jobs. Probably mostly Democrats. And even those people I've sometimes heard say the weirdest things. I remember a 30-year old guy, network architect at UUnet (what is now Verizon, AS701) tell me that he bought a gun for safety. He lived around Washington (Fairfax, I believe). I've been there, it's a very nice area. You can't call that a bad neighborhood. I've been to Raleigh a few times. It was weird to see notices at the door telling you that you can't carry your gun inside the office.

I know there are many sane people in the US. Most of the people I've worked with were just normal people. But overall, the average American is different from the average European. (And I think the European are way more different amongst themselves. If not only because of language). And your average American voted Trump into office. That's something that says something. Like I wrote, I've never heard any European argue they wanted a gun or needed a gun. Or that they thought that it would be good if every Tom Dick and Harry was allowed to carry one. Or even own one.

Also, that whole discussion about "good neighborhoods" and "bad neighborhoods" is weird. I know some suburbs around Paris are bad. But I've never heard of neighborhoods in NL, BE, Germany, or even the UK where you can't walk around because "it's a bad neighborhood". I've actually lived for 2.5 years in the worst neighborhood in our country (Amsterdam South-East, aka The Bijlmer). It wasn't fun, it was a poor area, half the people were immigrants. But I never felt unsafe. There was criminality, more than anywhere else, but that didn't mean you'd get mugged or shot if you walk outside (not even during the evening).

I remember in 2001, I was driving up north to San Francisco. Via 285. Almost there. A few cars overtook me. Going slightly faster than the speed-limit. So I followed them. Then a police-car showed up. Made me stop. The other cars were allowed to continue. So I did what I always do at home. As soon as I stopped, I took my drivers-license. Got out of the car and walked to the police car. Then when the police officer gets out of his car, I am there already, to shake his hand, and ask "how can I help you, officer". So I did that here too. The police officer almost got a heart-attack. He told me to never ever do that again. He told me that would be a sure way to get shot by a police officer some day. You need to sit behind the wheel and wait. This was in 2001, in a very wealthy area of the country. Now I can understand that people are surprised if you do something that is different from local customs. But I found it weird that that could be a reason to get shot in the head.

Anyway, my point is: having guns around changes how people perceive other people. It changes society. And not for the better. Most gun debates center around the question whether gun-laws would bring down murder-rates or not. Or gun-related accidents. I don't think that is the biggest issue. Imho guns change society in a much more fundamental way that just changing the murder statistics. And it seems nobody in the US realizes that. Weird.

Draxil on 6/10/2017 at 12:01

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You're actually a pro-authority anarchist, in favor of state controlled or regulated weapons, media, and health care. I don't think you're an anarchist. I think you're actually quite the opposite, and I think there are a lot of ideas that you consider too crazy. Such as allowing an armed citizenry. To you, that's too crazy. I think you're honestly more comfortable with the idea of "subjects" than "citizens", to be ruled over, protected, and provided for by a strong and rather authoritarian government.

I think catbarf has a good point about how the homicide/violence rate in this country is skewed by a few outliers. Out of curiosity I looked up the murder rate/firearm murder rate in my county. The overall homicide rate is 1.02 per 100,000, which is on par with Australia, England, or Denmark. The firearm murder rate (four of the six total murders involved firearms) was 6.8 per million, which is on par with Sweden (rate of 6.5). (http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/stats/Crime/Murders-with-firearms-per-million) Source. I'm curious how those rates hold up on a county to county equivalence (removing the Chicagos from Australia, for example). What's the Australian rate outside of the inner cities?

I live in a pretty typical US suburb, I think, based on my travels in the US. In my state, no license is required to carry a gun openly or concealed. For general clarification, concealed carry doesn't give you the right to carry a gun anywhere you want. Any privately owned establishment can ban weapons on their property, and most public buildings are exempted from allowing concealed or open carry. In my city, it's rare that you could carry a gun into any building. I think that reduces the amount of concealed carry, because no one wants to get caught carrying illegally and no one wants to leave a gun in their car.