catbarf on 5/10/2017 at 18:28
Quote Posted by Starker
It's true that the homicide rate in the US is much higher than in other high-income countries, but the rate of firearm homicide is far far higher still.
(...)
Certainly, correlation alone doesn't prove anything, but there is a strong correlation between the number of firearms and number of homicides:
I have to correct you slightly there in that the chart you posted is specifically correlating firearm homicides to firearm ownership, not homicides as a whole. But as you said, even if you completely ignore our firearm homicides, we still have a higher homicide rate than most first-world countries.
And if you dismiss all stats from just our five biggest cities, the resulting homicide rate is lower than most of Europe. There's an
inverse relationship in this country between gun ownership and gun violence, where cities like Chicago and Baltimore are centers for violence despite strict control, while the state of New Hampshire is armed to the teeth but overwhelmingly peaceful. That's not to suggest anything about the effectiveness or ineffectiveness of gun control (let alone 'more guns will solve the problem'), rather that the problems we have are clearly more cultural and societal than simply access = violence.
As often as people draw comparisons to the UK or Australia, I'd rather realistically look at comparisons to New Zealand, the Czech Republic, and Switzerland. These countries are more lax in their gun regulation than many seem to want in the US (in some ways, Switzerland is more lax than the US is now), yet their overall homicide rates are low. I think it's more realistic to try to strive for a social model like that than to try to disarm a country literally founded on ownership of weapons.
Access to guns obviously turns social problems more lethal than they otherwise would be. There's no denying that. But I strongly dislike how the discussion on these issues revolves around the means rather than the causes of violence. You can't address one and ignore the other and expect results.
And even then, which means, and which violence are we talking about? If we want to address the #1 source of gun deaths, it's suicide. If we want to address the #1 source of homicides, it's inner-city gang violence brought about by failing economic and social systems, 97% of it is carried out with handguns, and overwhelmingly they're procured through straw purchase or unscrupulous sellers, the former of which the DoJ refuses to prosecute and the latter of which the ATF lacks the resources to investigate. We could take a big step towards addressing gun homicide through funding and mandating those agencies to do so, and without stepping on gun owners' toes. Yet the debate around gun control is all about assault weapons, high-capacity magazines, and gun shows and we go around in circles.
I'm just tired of this. There's so much we could be doing to address the statistically significant sources of our problem with gun violence, but instead it's another game of political football. The DoJ concluded that the 1994 Federal Assault Weapons Ban was worthless, yet politicians insist we need to ban assault weapons. Dysfunctional social systems and the school-to-prison pipeline are demonstrable factors in inner-city crime, yet politicians would rather send 'thoughts and prayers' than allocate a small fraction of our budget to the issue. It feels like all the concern that arises from tragedies like this is just posturing and scoring points for the tribe.
catbarf on 5/10/2017 at 18:34
Quote Posted by Brethren
It's kind of crazy that I live in a country where there's current legislation attempting to legalize the sale of silencers.
Speaking of which, in the UK suppressors are
required for hunting and are far more readily available than in the US. Same goes for most other European countries. Petty criminals overwhelmingly prefer handguns because they're concealable, which suppressors compromise, while the understandable concern of mass shooters killing silently is a little off-base as a typical rifle still clocks in at around the dB level of a jackhammer in operation and they don't stand up to rapid fire. Since they are already legal, just heavily regulated, the Vegas shooter could have easily gotten one, or several, but didn't. There just isn't evidence that they're used in, or useful for, crime.
If Congress wanted to trade removing suppressors from the NFA (so they'd need a background check, rather than a background check, excessive paperwork, $200 tax stamp, and 6-12 months wait time) for increasing regulation on handguns, I'd be all for it. Address a massive source of our gun violence problem while stripping red tape from a safety device, win-win.
It'll never happen.
Goldmoon Dawn on 5/10/2017 at 19:25
Quote Posted by Brethren
The guy who just killed 58 people in Vegas
No, it was multiple shooters buddy.
Also, the question was... "what makes the US so prone to violence". He didnt ask about the shooter that you are now talking about. I answered his question with just one little scratch off the surface, whereas you are lost in your own babbling confusion, as per usual. :D
heywood on 5/10/2017 at 19:28
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
And now the point I wanted to make.Not having guns in society is not only about decreasing murder-rates.
Guns have a much larger impact on people.
They become scared.
When everyone you meet might be packing an UZI, you need to be careful, All the time. When you do shopping, when you take your kids from school, etc. There can always be a nut with a gun. Be alert. All the time. And if you carry a gun yourself, you need to be even more alert. Because the guy who shoots first wins. So you'll have to make sure you shoot first. Because if you carry an UZI, and someone else shoots first and kills you, you'll look like a dork. Not like Rambo. So be alert. Keep your hands on your gun at all time. Be ready to shoot.
You might think I'm overreacting.
But just think about how the police in the US interacts with their own population.
They are always ready to shoot and kill. No questions asked. If there is any doubt, shoot. Don't shoot once, shoot 10 times. Empty your gun. Make sure to shoot everyone in the head first. Then ask questions.
This attitude has an impact on society.
It is so common in the US that Americans don't realize it anymore.
It makes life full of constant tension.
It makes Americans the most scared pussies in the whole world.
And they don't even know it.
True if you happen to live in a gang & drug infested neighborhood of a major city. False pretty much everywhere else.
We do have a lot of guns. But depending on where you live, you could go through your whole life and never see one except on a policeman's belt. By the way, the cops in my town are great. No complaints with the state police either, although I haven't dealt with them directly. I'm not black, but the impression I've gotten from black friends and coworkers is that they don't really have any problems with the cops either. Then again, I don't live in a place like Ferguson, Missouri.
Someday you should visit here for a while, because you seem to have a very Hollywood and tabloid news driven view of American life.
But the health care system does suck, I'll give you that one.
Gryzemuis on 5/10/2017 at 19:29
Quote Posted by Draxil
I'm probably lucky to be alive, according to you. What a crock.
Tell me. If Americans are not scared, why do so many of them insist on having a gun for safety ?
I live in a country with 17 million people. I work in a country with 10 million people. I live 300 meters from a country with 82 million people. I've never heard anyone out of those 100 million people say they need a gun for safety. Never. Not in real life, not in a newspaper, not on TV. Nobody here thinks a gun would make them safer.
But half the Americans think they need a gun.
Please explain.
Gryzemuis on 5/10/2017 at 19:37
Quote Posted by heywood
Someday you should visit here for a while, because you seem to have a very Hollywood and tabloid news driven view of American life.
I've spent about one and a half year of my life in the nineties in the US.
Quote:
But the health care system does suck, I'll give you that one.
That's not the problem.
The problem is that Americans are brain-washed that everything has to be done individually. You can't do things together. That's the commie way, not the American way. Universal health-care is bad. Unions are bad. Social security is bad. Getting help is bad. Public TV is bad. The result is that the American citizens are badly organized. And the 1% is eating them whole. The 99% will kept being eaten, because they think it's a fair fight between the 1% and the 99%, and they are just unlucky. The whole fake narrative that every American should be a lone-ranger yankee hero is part of that.
catbarf on 5/10/2017 at 20:21
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
I live in a country with 17 million people. I work in a country with 10 million people. I live 300 meters from a country with 82 million people. I've never heard anyone out of those 100 million people say they need a gun for safety. Never. Not in real life, not in a newspaper, not on TV. Nobody here thinks a gun would make them safer.
But half the Americans think they need a gun.
Please explain.
Those Americans live in a country with (
http://www.nationmaster.com/country-info/compare/Netherlands/United-States/Crime) several times the crime rate of yours (and dozens of times higher in our worst cities), which has a police response time (
https://blogs.wsj.com/numbers/response-times-detroit-giving-no-time-to-misleading-police-stats-1264/) sometimes measured in hours, a justice system that has explicitly ruled that police have (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia) absolutely no responsibility to protect them, and criminals who are already armed.
So I guess the accurate answer to your question is that our countries are radically different and Americans are straight up told by their government that their safety is their own responsibility, so they take action appropriately.
Edit: Also, seconding heywood's comments. For someone who says to have lived here I don't think you understand the American mindset. I know a number of concealed carriers and none of them are this paranoid always-ready-to-shoot caricature you describe. The mindset is much closer to 'rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it' than expecting a shootout at any moment.
Gryzemuis on 5/10/2017 at 21:19
Quote Posted by catbarf
So I guess the accurate answer to your question is that our countries are radically different and Americans are straight up told by their government that their safety is their own responsibility, so they take action appropriately.
You made your own country.
In a democracy, the people are in charge.
The people chose to elect the people they elect. They get the government they deserve.
Americans want violence. And they are scared. They think violence is the answer to everything.
And they don't seem to realize that violence is actually the problem. Not the solution.
heywood on 5/10/2017 at 21:50
Quote Posted by Gryzemuis
That's not the problem.
The problem is that Americans are brain-washed that everything has to be done individually. You can't do things together. That's the commie way, not the American way. Universal health-care is bad. Unions are bad. Social security is bad. Getting help is bad. Public TV is bad. The result is that the American citizens are badly organized. And the 1% is eating them whole. The 99% will kept being eaten, because they think it's a fair fight between the 1% and the 99%, and they are just unlucky. The whole fake narrative that every American should be a lone-ranger yankee hero is part of that.
More stereotypes. Americans are not all libertarians you know. Not even most.
It's really hard to believe you lived here since you usually talk in stereotypes to the point of absurdity.
Renzatic on 5/10/2017 at 22:03
Quote Posted by catbarf
Also, seconding heywood's comments. For someone who says to have lived here I don't think you understand the American mindset. I know a number of concealed carriers and none of them are this paranoid always-ready-to-shoot caricature you describe. The mindset is much closer to 'rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it' than expecting a shootout at any moment.
Everyone knows it's the open carry people who are the crazy ones. You know the type. They swagger into the local Circle K with a big ass revolver strapped to their hip, order a pack of chew, then stand in the corner, trying to get people to make eye contact with them so they can launch into a tirade about their rights.
I can understand concealed carry, especially if someone live in a dangerous neighborhood. Like you, I know a few people who do have a license to do so, and they're far from crazy. But those people who walk into Wal-Mart sporting a tacticooled up super customized extended magazine AR15 (with the obligatory holosite kit installed) strapped to their back for all to see? They're either overcompensating for something, or are really desperate for attention.
Also, I don't think those people own a single article of clothing that doesn't have a skull on it.
