WindsorFox on 5/6/2004 at 05:57
Some how I had assumed no orphans were left at the time of the fire or they had made it out as Drept was there and is obviously alive.
null on 5/6/2004 at 19:01
Quote Posted by qckbeam
I have a few questions too if that's ok. How long did it take you to complete the Cradle, from conceptualization to finish, and what part of the level did you personally enjoy creating the most? Also, just out of curiosity (and I hope no one has already asked or I'm going to feel stupid) what other levels did you work on in TDS?
Many thanks for all of the compliments. I began to construct the Cradle about two years ago, and continued to iterate on it right up until we shipped. Really, I was trying to construct a little immersion-centric survival horror game out of scripts, so I worked extremely late on and off for about a year of that time.
As for other levels I touched before I was made a lead and discontinued ownership over maps... I also contributed a fair percentage to Garrett's apartment, South Quarter and Pavelock. Not as much as I'd have liked, but most of the architecture and the initial design documents.
Truth is, though, I'm at my best when I'm allowed to mess with the player's head. When it came down to choosing what to use my after-hours time on, no contest was held. ;)
radioman on 5/6/2004 at 19:11
Well, Saturday 6/5 and I'm finally out of that Shalesbridge hell hole and back to "reality." Like others I could only play in small chunks of time before I said "I don't need to be doing this right now in my life."
Unlike others I've actually been in a nut house so the Shalesbridge experience tapped into some very deep personal shit for me. Exactly 30 years ago (June 6, 1974 - what an anniversary to celebrate :p ) I had a drug-induced freak out and was taken away to a very nice private mental hospital. This was before rehabs became common and they didn't know where else to put us dopers who weren't actually crazy. My hospital was in a series of older Gothic buildings connected by underground tunnels, so the layout of Shalesbridge was not unfamiliar in a general way. For most of my stay I was on what's called Open Hall, so during the day I was free to wander the complex, much as I wandered Shalesbridge. Brrr.
My first night there, though, I was on SO (special observation) which meant a really creepy Irishman sat in my doorway all night. (And night staff are creepy by nature - that's where they put the slightly bent employees they don't want visitors to see). Those Shalesbridge chairs outside the nine rooms were the perfect touch of authenticity.
By the early 70s psychiatric drugs like those in the -zine family were coming in general use so I didn't have lie there in the dark listening to quite the same sounds of madness as we find in Shalesbridge. What sound design - it made the mission. Still, the whimper of whipped dogs - to steal a line from Harlan Ellision - was clearly audible across the courtyard as I finally drifted off to sleep after a very odd day. I had to play Shalesbridge with the volume way down low. I just couldn't take my normal wall-shaking gain levels. Much too close to home for me.
Like I said I was in for drug addiction, not any sort of real mental illness like schizophrenia. My therapy was some guy talking to me. While I never had to have hot and cold baths and wet sheet wraps or the shock therapy and all the other indignaties foisted upon the mad back then, I did see the patients being wheeled back from those barbarisms - human husks lolling over in their chairs, tongues out, clothes soiled. Shalesbridge brought me right back to those warm summer days of 1974 in a way I wish I hadn't been brought back to that strange time in my life. The purpose of art, I've always believed, is to tap into our own experiences and show us that of which we may not be aware. I can't believe how much I'd forgotten.
Null and his team did a terrific job. Shalesbridge Cradle sets the new standard for Thief missions. And for me it's a grim reminder of my own personal nightmare. Not to leave anyone hanging: all that talking they did at me actually took and June 6 is also a very postive anniversary, too. :thumb:
dr. cello on 5/6/2004 at 19:22
Which makes me curious. Null, what did you do to research the Cradle's design? It definitely seems to have been more thought out than 'let's make this take place at an asylum'.
null on 5/6/2004 at 19:24
Quote Posted by radioman
Unlike others I've actually been in a nut house so the Shalesbridge experience tapped into some very deep personal shit for me.
What a story! I ... almost feel guilty having done all that research, now!
Almost. ;)
I won't be doing another asylum for quite a while, so perhaps next time you play a mission from me, you'll get a bit more of a breather. Between bouts of hyperventilating, that is, if I have my way.
Very glad you enjoyed it despite (or partially because of?) the personal congruency.
theblackw0lf on 5/6/2004 at 19:31
Quote Posted by null
It was hinted at by many of the fiction assets, but much less so than in the original design. I've made the decision, with horror (and to some extent with game design in general) to leave as much as possible either open to interpretation or utterly unknown. These aren't my stories. They're my settings, and you write as you go.
Games are not movies; you're supposed to be authoring the narrative with each interactive second. That includes drawing subjective conclusions from ambiguous fictional sources. It's simply more fun to wonder and assume rather than be told, in my opinion.
True, it's a delicate balancing act in trying to create the optimal playing experience for the individual. On the one hand, you're right that anything we create in our own minds will tend to affect us more, because it comes out of our own subjective thoughts and feelings, and therefore will be more personal. On the other hand, you run the risk of the player not being as affected by the level because their level of enjoyment will be based on their own abilities to imagine and be creative. As I said, I was kind of disappointed initially in the level, but that was due more to my own failure of imagination, combined with not taking the time to fully explore and immerse myself in the level, as opposed to any design flaws. I'd also imagine it would be frustrating as a writer if you create a fascinating backstory and plot, and people who experience what you created miss out on some of the story. I've shared some of your thoughts with others, and judging by their reactions it seems that it made them have a much greater appreciation and enjoyment for the level. And it's frustrating to me that there are people who will play the level and will not have the most optimal playing experience because their own understanding of the plot and backstory doesn't make their experience as enjoyable as it could be if they were aware of some of the things you've told me. On the other hand, there might be some who's own interpretation of events might make the level more enjoyable for them than if they interpreted it the way you intially designed it as. There really is no right or wrong answer though.
I'd also be curious to hear what some of the original design was. Sorry for being so inquisitive but it's not often you will find a developer who you respect and admire being so open about their design philosophy.
Little_Dragon on 5/6/2004 at 19:36
I now want a "Director's Cut" DVD edition of Thief 3 with audio commentary by all the level designers.
SLIEZER on 6/6/2004 at 00:11
Quote Posted by Psyco86
I'm going to sound like a jackass, but I wasn't that impressed.
[SPOILER]There were like 8 things in the entire level that attacked you, and I brought tons of flash bombs.[/SPOILER]
Yeah...scary noises...creepy writings... Whatever. It was a good level, but I expected it to be WAY worse.
System Shock 2 scared the hell out of me more.
I agree.
After the first undead, things are't scary anymore, since those creatures dosn't look too scary.. the knockings on the door freaked me out, however.. :p
Some Serious Dough on 6/6/2004 at 01:38
This level totally freaked me out, perhaps more than Return to The Cathedral.
I still prefer good old RTC tough... :p
Asrimal on 6/6/2004 at 03:46
I congratulate you on making my skin crawl and thank you for giving me a great mission to play. Reading this thread makes my skin crawl as I remember by experience in the Cradle. I went in ill-equipped, I had 2 flashbombs and a single fire arrow. I used them on the first puppet in the morgue. I immediately went down to the furnace and grabbed the fire arrows there. I used them on most of the White Hall 9, I refused to go into any of the cells save for the ones I was supposed to go into.
