null on 4/6/2004 at 16:10
Quote Posted by Wynne
I think I might've tried to place the condition on the cage door rather than the Staff Tower door, barring the player from entering the past via that route until they'd finished all their real-world business. That would've cut down on frustration and helped keep the tension high from the moment you enter the past as yourself to the moment you're free--but then, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a technical limitation on that, due to the number of times the player goes in and out of that cage, frobs the door, goes to the past, etc.
Actually, the reason it's not on the cage door is a bit better than that.
(whisper) You can enter the past as Garrett long before you're told to...
Sort of an easter egg / reward for repeat players.
theblackw0lf on 4/6/2004 at 19:34
Quote Posted by null
[SPOILER]Inquisitive, aren't you. Most of this is just internal-only now, but alright...
It's only implied, but one of the White Hall nine painted the infamous portrait of Lauryl, who (strangely) he didn't harm because she, among nearly all the models he had ever painted, remained perfectly still.
However, when Lauryl was slain, the staff incorrectly assumed that that self-same patient ("The Watcher" up in the observatory) was responsible, so they announced that he was going to be taken to the treatment rooms for curative therapy. In fact, all he had done was discover the skinless body, and stole the bloody nightgown from it to remember her by.
Typically, when the staff tired of supporting an occupant of the White Hall, they were either used as part of some backwards Victorian mental health experiment, which they were guaranteed not to survive, or they were lobotomized, and chucked into the Pauper's Ward back in the outer cradle, no longer a threat of any kind.
So! King No One gets wind of this, and uses the impending removal of the Watcher, who was rather popular, to incite a riot. Once the White Hall nine were all free at once and had staff keys, the Cradle fell prey to them. Patient number nine, "The Moth", found fuel for her tinder box, and set the place ablaze. When all its 'children' (sometimes literally) began to die, the Cradle awoke, as institutional suffering and control personified.
As for why you don't see the patients in the past, there are two reasons. One, the Cradle doesn't have to construct them as memories; they still have a withered, cloth-wrapped physical form to play puppeteer with. It remembers them the same way it eventually understands Garrett -- something intact, to be broken.
The second is gameplay related. In the present, I thought of the player as an orphan, fleeing the psychotic and at best, sociopathic patients. In the past, you are of course playing the part of the patient, fleeing the oppressive and vicious asylum staff. The stealth model demanded clarity, and it fit the fiction well.[/SPOILER]
Wow, fascinating. Are people able to deduce most of what you say based on hints found in the cradle? As I said I probably missed out on some of the documnentation because all I was fcoused on was getting out of there. Or did you leave it more vague so people would come up with their own interpretation of what happened? I'm curious because a lot of what you say I would have never guessed. Though as I said I might have missed some hints along the way.
theblackw0lf on 4/6/2004 at 19:43
Quote Posted by Wynne
Like theblackwolf (GK fan?) .
Yea, I picked the username shortly after playing GK: The Beast Within, as tribute to my favorite character ever. And I've been using it since. In hindsight the name is kind of cheesy as a username but it's become my idenity so I'll stick with it
herechickychick on 4/6/2004 at 21:54
Quote Posted by theblackw0lf
Wow, fascinating. Are people able to deduce most of what you say based on hints found in the cradle? As I said I probably missed out on some of the documnentation because all I was fcoused on was getting out of there. Or did you leave it more vague so people would come up with their own interpretation of what happened? I'm curious because a lot of what you say I would have never guessed. Though as I said I might have missed some hints along the way.
I am wondering the same thing. I too am so freakin' scared in there that I am just trying to do exactly what I NEED to do so I can leave. This level is really getting to me and I thought I could handle it. Return To The Cathedral in Thief 1 didn't scare me at all, there were some tense moments but it didn't scare me. The Shalebridge Cradle is scaring the living crap out of me and where I would normally play this game for hours at a time I am only able to do like 5-10 minutes here and there and now I am on day 4 of this mission. And to make matters worse I HAVE TO play when it's dark out because there is too much glare on my monitor during the day.
My non gaming friends can't understand how a computer game can scare me so bad and think I am nuts.
null on 4/6/2004 at 22:13
Quote Posted by theblackw0lf
Wow, fascinating. Are people able to deduce most of what you say based on hints found in the cradle? As I said I probably missed out on some of the documnentation because all I was fcoused on was getting out of there. Or did you leave it more vague so people would come up with their own interpretation of what happened? I'm curious because a lot of what you say I would have never guessed. Though as I said I might have missed some hints along the way.
It was hinted at by many of the fiction assets, but much less so than in the original design. I've made the decision, with horror (and to some extent with game design in general) to leave as much as possible either open to interpretation or utterly unknown. These aren't my stories. They're my settings, and you write as you go.
Games are not movies; you're supposed to be authoring the narrative with each interactive second. That includes drawing subjective conclusions from ambiguous fictional sources. It's simply more fun to wonder and assume rather than be told, in my opinion.
radioman on 5/6/2004 at 00:16
Null, dittos on your good work and thanks for joining up and posting here. It's sort of like having a director's commentary. Most of the insights into a game's creation one finds in the magazines are pretty superficial, but you really brought us the straight dope. One glaring omission from your mission: the sound of Garrett crapping himself. Did he take Kaopectate first? I didn't see *that* item in the inventory :cool:
Banshee on 5/6/2004 at 00:28
Another thing... as soon as I went up to the Staff tower and saw the long table in front of the window, I immediately thought 'Hudsucker Proxy'! So I went and did a swan dive just like good old Waring Hudsucker.
foldy on 5/6/2004 at 02:59
Well, The Cradle marks the first time I was ever startled/scared by my own shadow in a videogame.
The zombified residents amazed me. They are perhaps my all-time favorite enemy in a videogame ever. Backstabbing one in a pitch-black hallway, only to have them later spring up at you upon carelessly running back through said hallway had me screaming aloud at least twice.
I suppose I was a bit dissapointed in the level's focusing on the girl, as her favors/fetch quests honestly had me a little bored. The next time I play through this mission, I'm leaving no stone unturned. It's interesting that there's this much mention of King-No-One, because I was really intrigued by what little I'd read of him, and didn't realize he played a bigger part.
herechickychick on 5/6/2004 at 03:45
FINALLY I am out of the Cradle!!! I have not been that tense, scared, freaked out, physically ill playing a game OR watching a movie EVER! Well, as an adult that is. It does remind me of how scared and tense I was watching The Exorcist when I was a little kid.
You did an excellent job scaring the living crap out of a lot of people Null, you should be mighty proud. Funny thing is, right after getting back onto the streets after the Cradle everyone freaked me out at first still. People far away reminded me of the Staff. It was nice to see the city watch again, even though they are trying to kill me every chance they get but for some reason they aren't as threatening as the ultra scary patients of the Shalebridge Cradle. That violent shaking and what they were wearing was the scariest. But as a lot of other people have said it was the unknown and tension raised by that along with the music and sound effects and the ultra creepy setting. Damn the WHOLE THING just worked.
qckbeam on 5/6/2004 at 05:38
Well null I know you have already been praised by everyone on these forums, but I really loved the Cradle and have been dying to add in my comments :)
Shalebridge was an amazing place. I hesitate to call it a level or a mission. It was my favorite part of the game, and the only time I played where I actually found myself treating the entire mission as a real environment, and the npcs as people rather than, well, npcs. The only other mission that gripped me like this was the Overlook.
I can't pin down exactly what it was that made your mission so wonderful, simply because everything was just so perfect. The level had a brilliant layout and allowed for some really scary run-ins with the patients. I can't say how many times those guys scared the crap out of me. Even after I had successfully brought them down I wouldn't dare go near their corpses for fear of "waking them up" again.
The usage of sound was the best I have ever heard in any game. I honestly cannot think of anything that makes better use of sound to induce fear. Silent Hill is the only game I can think of that's similar, and even it (as in the entire series) doesn't have any moments as terrifying as Shalebridge.
The place was so depressing too on top of being really scary. The part in the shock treatment room, when Lauryl tells you about how she once saw a man wrapped up in bandages screaming, and her being to scared to help got my imagination going. I couldn't help but feel revulsion towards the Cradle. I was coming up with all sorts of little mini-stories in my head while I played about what the place must have been like in the past. What the doctors were like, what sorts of horrible things the patients must have undergone in the name of medical science, what it must have been like for children living in the nursery. I actually felt emotion for the patients, and the orphans, and the staff. It touched upon the whole spectrum, from sympathy to hatred. The letters scattered about the Cradle, and the patient logs, and Lauryls comments (I really liked Lauryl a lot), really brought the Cradle to life for me. It just felt so alive, and it was incredible. Really terrific work null; really terrific. I would love to see what you could do on a whole game devoted to this sort of atmosphere! :D
I have a few questions too if that's ok. How long did it take you to complete the Cradle, from conceptualization to finish, and what part of the level did you personally enjoy creating the most? Also, just out of curiosity (and I hope no one has already asked or I'm going to feel stupid) what other levels did you work on in TDS?
Thank you so much for providing us with this truly awesome experience. The Cradle alone made TDS worth the purchase, and the wait. TDS is an excellent game, and the Cradle is definitely the gem in it's crown :) Thank you null, you and everyone else did really great work here :)
