Danathor on 4/6/2004 at 07:06
well i managed to complete the entire cradle mission last night, *somehow i always ended up getting around to playing this mission at night, which kinda pissed me off, but was too scared to quit playing and sleep, for fear of the puppets getting me!* anyways, back to what i was saying, i completed it entirely ghoting the whole thing, i was too afraid of the puppets getting back up to kill them, so like i said, i somehow managed to not touch a single one or draw any attention. Now I have a question for you null, like Lauryll says to you, the cradle only remembers bits and fragments, that seems evident in that the staff members seem to be interacting with other people/things that arent there, was this intended? Or am I just seeing things?
dr. cello on 4/6/2004 at 07:22
Probably true... after all, the Cradle only remembers you because you've been there too long. Presumably visitors aren't remembered.
Vancore on 4/6/2004 at 07:56
Hey Null, I thought you might like to hear of an interesting situation that happened in your level.
[SPOILER]I was nearing the end of your level and came across the seated staff members that came between me and the window I'm supposed to jump out of. Looking over my possibilites I decided to go the direct route, jumping onto the table and out the window. Well.. I didn't make it out the window but I did manage to lift myself up there just before one of them killed me. Then, in perfect ragdoll form, I watched as garrett stumbled out the window into oblivion, completing the mission. All I could think was "Whoa.. best fake death ever." Don't think you planned it that way but it was cool. :thumb: [/SPOILER]
Awesome level btw, scared the living dickens outta me. *Thump, thump, thump*
dr. cello on 4/6/2004 at 08:12
...Vancore, that is one of the coolest things I've ever read. I'll bet nobody else can say they've actually died to win a mission before. :thumb:
Danathor on 4/6/2004 at 08:27
yeah for sure, that's cool, i just noise arrowed them, i creeped about halfway behind them, auto saved just before i did that, when one just kinda leaned back and touched me... boom dead
dr. cello on 4/6/2004 at 08:30
Quote Posted by GRRRR
I was a tiny-weenie itsy-bitsy weee dissapointed by the "Past" of the asylum. Expected a whole different ambiente - like new tapestry, cozy lights, lots of people - ya know..."nice past - evil present".
Man, that would have been so much scarier. Though I don't imagine a -nice- insane asylum... more like one where they're real people. Hmm.
Say. Does Shalebridge have anything to do with the Shalebridge of Thief 2 yore? Or am I misremembering the old name (as I did with Rumsford/Rutherford)
theblackw0lf on 4/6/2004 at 08:56
Quote Posted by null
[SPOILER]Multiple reasons, really...
I was already working all hours on a very ambitious vision. The Cradle's memories, as they shipped, were already extremely complex and I had only the support of a single mission's resources. As is, when you enter the past, all the rubble disappears, the scorch marks disappear, toys disappear, loot disappears, the lights change, the vision filters change, all ambient sound changes, inventory is disabled, et cetera.
As far as orphans went, I wanted you to remain focused on Lauryl, so I established an horror-oriented puppet / puppeteer relationship, where the only things the cradle cared to remember in detail were:
A) Lauryl, the victim whose murder set in motion many of the events that resulted in its downfall and the birth of its will as a conscious entity
B) Its nine favorite playthings (monstrous inmates of great individual interest)
C) The shades of the Staff hive-mind, which are remembered as just faceless malice, and are now just extensions of its desires and impulses.
Walking around and talking to ghosts of children, or seeing the Cradle in its original incarnation, when it was simply an orphanage, while interesting for an adventure game, wouldn't really have communicated the sense of dread I wanted to impart. Ultimately, a mixture of an economic "layer of memories" mindset and the target emotional state produced the shipping result, which I'm happy with in a Thief game.
As I've said many times, I'd love to do a game in the not-too-distant future where I can extrapolate all those systems to something even more ambitious. Base the entire game around that kind of pervasive atmosphere and terror.[/SPOILER]
Thanks for the info. I knew you'd have a satisfactory answer :) I still have a couple of questions though
[spoiler]how exactly did the death of Lauryl cause the Cradle to begin to possess it's own will? I guess you gave hints somewhere but I must have missed them
Since the Cradle only seems to care about the patients and the staff, why when you go back into the past don't you see the patients? You would think that they would be part of the Cradle's memories. Although maybe they were in their cells in Whitehall. I didn't really feel like checking :)[/spoiler]
radioman on 4/6/2004 at 15:15
I haven't read every post as I'm not done with the level but I do note that by a factor of 4 or 5 to 1 this is by far the most popular thread. I started this mission last Sunday but I kept getting too freaked :o Today is Friday and since I *had* to have T: DS I went back and played the earlier missions, but better. This truly a game of infinite possiblities - as least it seems that way so far.
null on 4/6/2004 at 15:46
Quote Posted by theblackw0lf
Thanks for the info. I knew you'd have a satisfactory answer :) I still have a couple of questions though
[spoiler]how exactly did the death of Lauryl cause the Cradle to begin to possess it's own will? I guess you gave hints somewhere but I must have missed them
Since the Cradle only seems to care about the patients and the staff, why when you go back into the past don't you see the patients? You would think that they would be part of the Cradle's memories. Although maybe they were in their cells in Whitehall. I didn't really feel like checking :)[/spoiler]
[SPOILER]Inquisitive, aren't you. Most of this is just internal-only now, but alright...
It's only implied, but one of the White Hall nine painted the infamous portrait of Lauryl, who (strangely) he didn't harm because she, among nearly all the models he had ever painted, remained perfectly still.
However, when Lauryl was slain, the staff incorrectly assumed that that self-same patient ("The Watcher" up in the observatory) was responsible, so they announced that he was going to be taken to the treatment rooms for curative therapy. In fact, all he had done was discover the skinless body, and stole the bloody nightgown from it to remember her by.
Typically, when the staff tired of supporting an occupant of the White Hall, they were either used as part of some backwards Victorian mental health experiment, which they were guaranteed not to survive, or they were lobotomized, and chucked into the Pauper's Ward back in the outer cradle, no longer a threat of any kind.
So! King No One gets wind of this, and uses the impending removal of the Watcher, who was rather popular, to incite a riot. Once the White Hall nine were all free at once and had staff keys, the Cradle fell prey to them. Patient number nine, "The Moth", found fuel for her tinder box, and set the place ablaze. When all its 'children' (sometimes literally) began to die, the Cradle awoke, as institutional suffering and control personified.
As for why you don't see the patients in the past, there are two reasons. One, the Cradle doesn't have to construct them as memories; they still have a withered, cloth-wrapped physical form to play puppeteer with. It remembers them the same way it eventually understands Garrett -- something intact, to be broken.
The second is gameplay related. In the present, I thought of the player as an orphan, fleeing the psychotic and at best, sociopathic patients. In the past, you are of course playing the part of the patient, fleeing the oppressive and vicious asylum staff. The stealth model demanded clarity, and it fit the fiction well.[/SPOILER]
Wynne on 4/6/2004 at 15:58
Quote Posted by Melissa
I confess that I was starting to wonder if I was going to jump out of the window and be confronted by a Keeper telling me, "Garrett! No! You DIDN'T let her OUT, did you? ;)
I was very suspicious of Lauryl at first... I thought it was a Viktoria/Shodan-esque manipulation. I completed her tasks, in the beginning, with serious wariness. I even climbed into the cage and closed the door right in the beginning, specifically because she told me not to... and because I was sort of daring myself, I think. I wanted to see what would happen. That's one very cool thing about this mission... the dread and curiosity so intermingled.
As to the end, I didn't manage an escape quite like Vancore's, but I did make a run for it and get stuck before jumping. I had a chunk taken out of me, though; pretty harrowing. :thumb: I'm presuming, since you have that long drop just before the mission ends, that Lauryl breaks your fall and that's how you survive. By the end, I really liked her character... Terri does a spectacular job voicing the child, of course, and she was miles above Murus in terms of sympathy. Even when I was most wary, I never felt annoyed by what she was asking me to do... I knew it wasn't something she was asking frivolously or with the intention of blackmail, and knew that she just wanted to be free to end, and to keep me safe as well. She never deliberately withheld information; she simply didn't have enough power herself to defeat the Cradle's hold.
Like theblackwolf (GK fan?) I didn't feel like checking on the patients in the past! The view field made everything seem like it stretched; it was a bizarre, vague sort of vertigo that gave it a very otherworldly feel, and it didn't even seem like the layout was the same. I just wanted to get out of there, and not to get lost... although, at the same time, I kinda didn't want it to end. The need to
escape as your real self, to face the fears a final time, to enter that cage and make a dramatic getaway... that's really what makes it feel full and satisfying, and very Thief. The only thing that interfered with that feel was the need to get the last bit of special loot; if it were me, I think I might've tried to place the condition on the cage door rather than the Staff Tower door, barring the player from entering the past via that route until they'd finished all their real-world business. That would've cut down on frustration and helped keep the tension high from the moment you enter the past as yourself to the moment you're free--but then, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a technical limitation on that, due to the number of times the player goes in and out of that cage, frobs the door, goes to the past, etc.
Actually, due to the complexity of this level, I'm amazed there weren't any bugs!
The moment you hear King No-one laugh... that was awesome, because I was thinking to myself, "Oh, it's just an echo of the past. It's not that creepy." Then, after a little bit of mild, I-feel-safer-up-here-than-elsewhere exploration, I tried to use the elevator again... *gulp* I liked what I read of that character, too; very subtle, but very effective. He seemed a little bit Phantom of the Opera, a little bit Silence of the Lambs, and yet, a little bit worse...
Shalebridge is really a perfect example of how those little lovingly scripted moments add to a game. What was truly amazing was that, the normal logic of "there has to be a way out of this; it's a
game" did not enter my brain at moments like that. It was more, "What will I have to do to get out of this? Has he won? Has the Cradle trapped me here forever?" There's something beyond keyboards and monitors and pixel shading and such... something about Shalebridge Cradle, the combination of all the factors together, the way everything pulls together, the way each detail was so believably and intelligently crafted, that makes you
forget it's a game if you let yourself. It's one of the most insanely difficult things for developers to achieve, but Shalebridge is a true experience that way.
Oh, and for the record... I'm something of a jaded horror fan myself. I watch most horror movies to laugh, including the original Halloween, Friday the 13th, etc. I fell asleep during the Exorcist because I was so bored by it (not bragging--nothing to brag about; it simply happened, and I think it's only scary if you were little when you saw it). Even as much as the Ring creeped me out, I got a full night's sleep after seeing it, and deliberately studied the creepier portions out of interest. I find horror fascinating at times; still, rarely does it get to my emotions and make me experience it rather than study technique. But Shalebridge really sucked me in. When morning finally dawned, I was glad I would be sleeping in the light with my dog.
