heywood on 2/9/2004 at 19:59
To Sorskogen on the subject of Billie:
[SPOILER]In both of my games I met her and Saman in the Mosque during the 1st trip to Cairo. I played Seattle the same way in both games: meeting both Chen and Morgan and doing both the WTO and Order quests. In the first game, I took the order side at Mako and killed the scientist. The second time, I took the WTO side and kept the weapon. Maybe you don't get to see Billie if you didn't go to the Order church in Seattle.[/SPOILER]
and
[SPOILER]I wonder if you can kill her or Saman in the Mosque. I haven't run across any invincible characters in IW like there were in DX1, and I think the designers were trying to avoid those kinds of limitations. That's why they protect Dumier when you meet him in the SSC building at Trier and why you don't meet Nassif face to face until halfway through the game. But they seem to leave Saman and Billie unprotected at the Mosque. If you can take them out, I wonder who leads the Templars.[/SPOILER]
also
[SPOILER]When you get to Liberty Island, Saman should be in his bunker and Billie should be at UNATCO HQ. You should find her mixed in with some Templars and some bums in a room just after you go through what used to be the guard gate. If you are not allied with the Templars, Billie and Saman will be hostile and won't talk to you. If you bypass Billie without fighting her and head straight for the Aquinas node, Saman talks to you through a holocomm unit in Jacobson's office. If you do his bidding, you will become allied with the Templars and then Billie and Saman will talk to you briefly. However, they don't really say anything of interest.[/SPOILER]
Sorskogen on 3/9/2004 at 12:52
I've been thinking about this and i'm wondering if i may have killed her by mistake!! I would reload and check but i delete savegames like they're going out of fashion to save space.
[SPOILER]You can't kill them in the Mosque becuase they're protected because of the stupid "weapons free zone" foolishness. I thought i might at least be able to hit them with the baton but no. The weapons locking code apparently renders big sticks useless too. EH??? [/SPOILER]
Sumgai on 3/9/2004 at 20:03
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[heywood]In DX1, the western nations were still democratic republics and the Illuminati preferred to work by placing people in key positions where they could influence the course of nations and facilitate cooperation behind the scenes. It's still a conspiracy but not such a sinister one. On the other hand, in DX:IW, the Illuminati sought to exercise power in a dictatorial way through a heirarchical system, like MJ12 did.
I see what your saying, but it seems to split hairs in that the Illuminati were using someone else's power/police force to achieve their goals in the old system, but after the Collapse they had to take up the cudgel themselves. Far less efficient, and in the course of time, after govt. organizations had matured and stabilized they would have slipped into the background again.
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Another difference was that the DX1 Illuminati professed to believe in individual liberty, achievement, and pursuing spiritual illumination. The DX:IW Illuminati believed in centralized control through corporate monopolies, economic regulation, and spiritual dogma. And to contrast their motives, consider that in DX1, Everett helps you cure the Gray Death while in DX:IW, the WTO is covering up a cure for Nanite Swell 11.
I think for the Illuminati methods change with the circumstances. Given the old order of control had gone the rules had changed, so working in the style the Illuminati had been probably wouldn't work anymore. The feeling I get with the Illuminati is that they profess all of these great beliefs, provided they have influence and stay wealthy, and when that doesn't happen they will do what they can to keep, or improve that position. Let's not forget Chad was an armed revolutionary.
The Gray death was more a case of Illuminati infighting (IMHO) and probably one-up-manship against his old associate (IIRC designed by Page?), it also was a threat to them, so a coincidence of interest. In the Illuminati ending of DX1 when JC asks how soon to release the vaccine, the condescending response come (paraphrasing) "All in good time"
I quite liked the confrontation with the WTO guy in IW, and he points out correctly that it is not certain the cure will work, and it could make things worse. You would hate this but it might have been a nice twist if, had you decided to release the vaccine, the news started reporting that the swell seemed to have dissipated, but people were getting sick from something else. :ebil:
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And I was never comfortable with the Helios ending in DX1, but at least in that case the AI was only proposing to become a world administrator. In DX:IW he's talking about forcibly turning the people into the Borg.
The DX1 Helios ending was my preferred ending, kind of a sense of "If I were in control I would be fair" (or, if you don't do things your way someone else will do it theirs.) of course OTOH it could be argued that absolute power corrupts absolutely. I felt the Helios ending in IW was the fulfilment of what had been intended by DX1, with a bit more. There was no talk of loss of free will, just modification so everyone was truly equal in abilities. Of course I don't think the Denton’s took into account peoples ability to discriminate against others for completely ridiculous reasons.
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The renegade ending was a disappointment because it seemed like the only morally acceptable choice - and when you make that choice you get punished with the worst possible outcome.
Well it would seem anarchy (in the political sense) would be the order of the day, much like the Tracer Tong (can't think of a proper name) ending in DX1. But eventually some new force would rise and the whole social/political cycle would be repeated. :)
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Second, what's with the signs "Aquinas Router --->" plastered around the building.
Tourist signs? :)
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Also, the layout more or less followed the layout of UNATCO in DX1, but many of the room dimensions and proportions seemed wrong and it just didn't feel right. And the wall, ceiling, and floor textures were all wrong as well. It's not like they didn't have the original levels to build from, so I can't figure out why they didn't do a more convincing job. I did enjoy some of the DX1 easter eggs though (soda machine, skull gun, raised floor in Jacobson's office).
Everything seemed kind of chunky, didn't it? Like in Quake 2 or something. I felt that especially when we were supposed to be in JC's "memories", Maggie Chows Hong Kong apartment etc..
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I agree that there were _way_ too many biomods and weapon mods available in the game, which cheapened their value.
It does make sense to me that after 20 years of research biomod functionality would have improved to the point where the modifications became more modular, and you could swap mods. To me part of the fun of DX1 was fretting over which biomod to install, trying to decide the best way to go, and scrounging for an upgrade canister, but if you are going to remove that, the game needs to be altered elsewhere. I expect players were intended to change biomods more often.
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But in hindsight I like the 2 upgrades per weapon rule. DX1 allowed for too much weapon specialization so you ended up building one or two super guns and using them more or less exclusively. DX:IW encouraged you to mod and make use of the other available weapons.
Not sure I agree with that. IIRC in DX1 you only got a few mods (clips size, accuracy, silencer, laser sight, scope) but the greatest improvement came through upgrading your training via skill points. I don't know how much better a DX1 weapon was fully upgraded than a standard one (I wouldn't class any of them as super weapons).
I suppose because IW was a shortish game you had access to most of the weapons quite quickly, and apart from a few variants weapons, I didn't see much difference between them.
I had a funny moment with the 3 guys in Cairo, (I kept thinking I was in India :erg: ) who complain about their kids not having rebreathers. As we were standing around one of them wandered too close to the burning barrel and went up in flames. He expired and fell over, then one of the others wandered near him and went up in flames also. I had to reload because the bodies were blocking my way. :laff:
There seemed to be some bug because I had a couple of occasions when burning objects would stop burning and then burst into flames again, then stop burning and burst into flames again, then stop burning and burst into flames again, etc...
Last bitch;
Big bots in small rooms (2 steps, turn, 2 steps, turn) that "tap dancing" when turning bulldog? bots turned around, the amount of time it took to dominate a bot, a spider bot would seriously harm you while dominating or you were open to attack from others (if there were no organics you probably didn't need to dominate). Just checked, you can actually run away from the bot while dominating, though this seems counter intuitive to me. (I didn't like the bots much in DX1 either, still better, (and better placement) than IW though)
No Lean :wot: . What feels more like stealth than poking your head out from behind a crate for a quick recon and mantle? Did anyone find that really useful?
When did Greys get so buff? Were they pumping iron in the Antarctic for 20 years (still didn't explaing their height though). :weird:
LOL, sorry to make this such a long post.
Cheers :cheeky:
juveli on 4/9/2004 at 06:52
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LOL, sorry to make this such a long post.
For some reason, DX games create long-post discussions. In a way this just proves that even IW has managed to catch
some of the original feeling. :)
I actually liked the renegade ending. [SPOILER]I thought I was so clever when I didn't ally with any of the factions in Liberty Island, and then the Omar contact me... I went "OMG those clever bastards! I've been cheated!" :D [/SPOILER]
PSiKoTiCSiLVeR on 7/9/2004 at 16:33
Quote Posted by heywood
If you leave Billie alive, she shows up again at UNATCO on Liberty Island. Maybe if I had gone straight there instead of trying to talk to Saman first I would have gotten some conversation out of her.
No. No she doesn't. I tranq'd her and I *edit* DIDN'T SEE */EDIT* of her for the remainder of the game.
heywood on 7/9/2004 at 22:17
Sumgai wrote:
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In the Illuminati ending of DX1 when JC asks how soon to release the vaccine, the condescending response come (paraphrasing) "All in good time"
Ah, I had forgotten about that. For what it's worth, I did feel that the Illuminati ending was the worst option in DX1.
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The DX1 Helios ending was my preferred ending, kind of a sense of "If I were in control I would be fair" (or, if you don't do things your way someone else will do it theirs.) of course OTOH it could be argued that absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Absolute power corrupts absolutely - yes, I was thinking that. But also, on principle I would rather have a government based on the will and authority of the people than a dictatorship, regardless of how effective or benevolent the dictator is. But I did feel better about the Helios ending in DX1 because I figured that if it doesn't work out, the people could always fall back on the Tong ending. But the Helios ending in DX:IW really seemed undesirable to me, because there was no turning back and because the game already hinted at what a collective awareness/consciousness would be like using the Omar as the example.
In any case, they apparently balanced the endings pretty well otherwise we wouldn't be here talking about their merits.
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Everything seemed kind of chunky, didn't it? Like in Quake 2 or something. I felt that especially when we were supposed to be in JC's "memories", Maggie Chows Hong Kong apartment etc..
Yeah, those rooms were pretty sparse and repetetive, weren't they? I think they should have cut the number of Helios nodes from 5 to 3 or something so there could have been more detail.
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Last bitch;
Big bots in small rooms (2 steps, turn, 2 steps, turn) that "tap dancing" when turning bulldog? bots turned around, the amount of time it took to dominate a bot, a spider bot would seriously harm you while dominating or you were open to attack from others (if there were no organics you probably didn't need to dominate). Just checked, you can actually run away from the bot while dominating, though this seems counter intuitive to me. (I didn't like the bots much in DX1 either, still better, (and better placement) than IW though)
Bot Domination is best used with Thermal Masking. In the Mosque I only had to take out one Templar myself and then I was able to sneak up on the military bot with Thermal Masking, start the domination attempt, and hide behind a pew. I used the bot to clear out the rest of the Templars who came pouring in. The first play through, I just used EMP grenades (there are tons of them in the game) and the spiders were easy to put down with a pistol.
I think they might have made the bots turn slowly on purpose - to make it easier to run around them without being spotted. Overall, I thought the bots were a lot more of a threat in DX1.
And yeah, I missed leaning too.
heywood on 7/9/2004 at 22:26
Quote Posted by PSiKoTiCSiLVeR
No. No she doesn't. I tranq'd her and I saw of her for the remainder of the game.
Did you mean you didn't see her again for the remainder of the game?
I didn't tranq her. I just shot her until she was sufficiently hurt that she ran away and I didn't pursue her. Then when I got to UNATCO HQ, there she was (and if you're allied with the Templars at that point, she talks, otherwise she shoots).
I'm not sure why she didn't reappear for you, but Sorskogen didn't see her either (see posts above) and it may have something to do with who you're allied with. Either that or something else... :confused:
Rolander on 8/9/2004 at 17:30
I believe that Billie doesn't appear if you take her down in Antartica, whether dead or merely unconscious. If she was left alive and conscious, apparently she will escape and wait for you in Antartica.
SirGuru on 17/9/2004 at 08:30
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I wonder whether Dumier follows through on his threat to kill her if you unfreeze Paul first.
I wanted to know it too, so I tried yesterday night ... well, this bloody bastard kills her (despite his "What kind of man to you think I am" babbling). :nono:
Alushe on 2/5/2005 at 20:36
I'll just add my own brief comment to this undead walking corpse of a thread... Pretty much all the IW endings involve the world coming under further control from one faction or another... Is it just me or does this set it up perfectly for DX3 to be set in a fully totalitarian society? It would be a welcome change from all the faction jumping... Imagine a game that starts similar to 1984 or somesuch, you're a lowly proletariat slowly unravelling the truth behind society, until the conspiracy suddenly hits you in the face and you are thrust into it. Now that would be nice :D
