Thirith on 30/3/2010 at 06:26
Even though I consider myself religious (although less so than I have been, due to a number of things that have happened over the last few years), I think that religious jackasses tend to be more frustrating than your average jackass. The problem is that they're idiots who claim to have some supreme authority on their side - "The earth is flat 'cause God says so! Gays go to hell 'cause God says so! Obama is an evil man 'cause God says so!"
Edit: I love the title of this thread - it sounds like a novel co-written by Philip K. Dick and T.C. Boyle.
Nicker on 30/3/2010 at 07:45
Quote Posted by fett
Again, I find myself compelled to apologize to humanity in general for having ever been even remotely associated with a religion that spawns this type of stuff.
I'm so sorry. :(
fett - you have absofuckinlutelynothing to apologise for here
june gloom on 30/3/2010 at 14:50
Quote Posted by Tonamel
Hey, it's not your fault
or the religion's. Jackasses will be jackasses for any reason they can justify.
This.
fett on 31/3/2010 at 05:18
Well, I was never like this, and didn't associate with such people, but there's something a little sickening inside me that recognizes that I stood in front of large groups of people and espoused the same doctrines and militant mindsets that these people share. Not about "witnessing" to non-believers, but as it related to political and social views, etc. My brand of Christianity was rather radical in the sense that I surrounded myself with people who thought we needed to save the world - not necessarily from sin, but from hunger, pain, physical need, and so on. That looks noble on the outset but on the inside it breeds some nasty ways of thinking that can really warp people who are already so unstable as to embrace the theology to begin with. Either way, I can't read much on websites like that without getting physically sick to my stomach. Seriously, I have an actual physiological reaction to stuff like that and I think of all the people who may have been hurt from the ripples I started somewhere. Too bad I wasn't Catholic, 'cause I sure have the guilt thing nailed.
Thirith on 31/3/2010 at 06:33
Quote Posted by fett
My brand of Christianity was rather radical in the sense that I surrounded myself with people who thought we needed to save the world - not necessarily from sin, but from hunger, pain, physical need, and so on. That looks noble on the outset but on the inside it breeds some nasty ways of thinking that can really warp people who are already so unstable as to embrace the theology to begin with.
You've probably written about this bit before, but I don't remember. What sort of "nasty ways of thinking" were bred by you and others wanting to save the world from hunger, pain etc.? Is it the kind of thing where you're setting yourself up for constant failure in your eyes and the eyes of God, because you can only do so much? Is it about saving this world vs. saving people for the next world, which I imagine can lead people to some pretty warped thinking? Enquiring minds (who don't particularly feel like working, so they're posting here) want to know. :)
Nicker on 31/3/2010 at 11:39
I can't speak for fett, Thirith, but for me it was a heady blend of compassion and self-importance.
Having accepted the message of damnation / salvation one may be confronted by many conflicts. For me, one was feeling responsible for the salvation of others, especially family and friends. Pastors may tell you that you can't make the choice for them, only bring them to the truth - but who would not feel an obligation to save, at least their loved ones, from eternal damnation?
It is first a fear reaction. Fear, not honestly identified, becomes anger at the fools who refuse to see the light. But you can't express that outright because to admit fear and anger, instead of faith and compassion, is felt as a spiritual failure. You might feel self contempt for being an inadequate witness then turn your anger at yourself out towards those damned atheists...
It can be a feedback cycle.
I think most of the members of Repent Amarillo are completely sincere about saving souls. But their fear and anger have eclipsed their humanity. It's like the inquisitors who, with tears of compassion in their eyes, could condemn you to a few days of mere earthly torture in the hope it might spare you and others from an eternity of anguish.
Another trap is the ego. You invest a lot of your identity in your professed beliefs and a lot of credibility in your community. Not to mention the power of affirming each other's faith. If doubts start to creep in, they can be terribly threatening to your sense of self, your social standing and (face it) your pride. Even at the point you are telling yourself "this is such a load of crap!", the ego will crank up the emotional self preservation circuits.
It's not easy admitting you might have been wrong, especially about eternity.
TMI?
Thirith on 31/3/2010 at 11:54
Thanks for the post, nicker. It's definitely interesting to me, because my way to faith was never via organised religion, so I'm lucky. I've never really been exposed to religious peer pressure and "This is how you have to interpret it, not any other way!", which to me seems to be one of the pillars of oppressive religion. I've always found doubt a necessary element of, well, anything. Without it you can't critically re-examine yourself and your beliefs, and without critical re-examination there's no progress or improvement. (It's no coincidence that The Satanic Verses is one of my favourite novels. :cheeky:)
Edit: Also, I still always read the title as "Repent, Armadillo!"
Harvester on 31/3/2010 at 15:57
Quote Posted by Nicker
I think most of the members of Repent Amarillo are completely sincere about saving souls. But their fear and anger have eclipsed their humanity.
But surely they can see that stuff like getting people fired from their jobs because they are in a swingers club, is not an effective way to save souls? On the contrary, these fired people will just be extremely angry at the Christian group, and even less likely to become a Christian themselves than they were before. And even if they could get a person to stop visiting a swingers club because it'll get him fired, all they have accomplished is that that person no longer visits a swingers club. He still isn't 'saved' for eternity because according to Christian doctrine, to get into heaven, a little more is needed than not visiting swingers clubs.
So I see what they're trying to accomplish, but I don't understand that they can't see that their methods aren't working.
Interesting posts by the way, fett and Nicker.
Tonamel on 31/3/2010 at 16:42
Quote Posted by Thirith
Edit: Also, I still always read the title as "Repent, Armadillo!"
I'm not alone! \:D/
fett on 1/4/2010 at 03:01
I think Nicker pretty much nailed it. I would add that there arises a serious cognitive dissonance when you invest in a theology that teaches you are worthless apart from the value that God places on you, while at the same time compelling you to invest time/money/energy/emotion into fellow humans who are likewise worthless.
The other unhealthy twist is manifested mainly in the family unit, where one member (usually the father) places a higher priority on his role as a Man of God, thus (in his mind) relieving him of the responsibility to care for his family first and foremost. I have to point out that the Bible does not teach this - it is very specific about the priorities for family men ("A man who does not care for his family is worse than a heathen/non-believer"), but the Church rarely addresses this because that man is part of the labor force that keeps the machine running smoothly. When his family implodes because the Church becomes his mistress, or because his spiritual energies don't extend into the home, the Church simply spits him out and sucks in another willing laborer. I've seen countless families go down this path, and hindsight tells me it was the primary reason why my church never grew exponentially in numbers. I fired/benched a lot of guys because they were neglecting the family in favor of ministry, thus the machine did not run smoothly.
That's a bit of a digression; the main point here is that whether you're "saved" or not , it tears the mind in two directions to be simultaneously worthless without God, yet valued so much that He would die for you. Add to that your service to equally worthless humans whom God loves, but will suffer in eternal darkness for not accepting that love. Add to that the stress Nicker mentioned about trying to "save" a family member. It's a cocktail for mental instability on some very deep and hidden places in your psyche, and walking away from it doesn't automatically purge the frustration that comes from trying to hold so many disparaging concepts so closely together.
