Kharan on 13/3/2002 at 15:48
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Originally posted by Glorofin Yes... you should have been a tester. To bad your not. Yes, too bad. I would have suggested how to improve sleeping instead of asking it to be taken out. Like the testers should have.
xman on 13/3/2002 at 17:26
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Originally posted by Glic Well, with all due respect to everyone in the forum, and everyone who worked on Arx, I must say that I do find it a little surprising that Arx is shaping up to be, in some ways, a simpler game than Underworld was. After all, UW is about 10 years older than Arx. Here are a few things that UW has that Arx apparently doesn't:
- sleeping
- branching conversations
- containers in inventory
- NPCs that get mad when you take their stuff (I love that!)
- bartering with NPCs
These are a few of my favorite things about UW, so it's a little disappointing that Arx doesn't have them. Still, I can see that the Arx designers have a good grasp of game design logic and general playability, so I'm confident that the game will not really suffer from the lack of them. I fully agree (although branching conversations are not indispensable if they managed to implement another consistent way to talk/interact with NPCs).
Fortunately, I also agree with your conclusion about keeping our confidence to the developpers.
Tels on 13/3/2002 at 18:26
xman and glic:
I agree 100%. OTOC (OnTheOtherClaw),
Arx is in many aspects a much more detailed game, but not more complicated (at least that is what it looks like).
There are some things (making the dog follow you, playing tricks with the goblins), but we have to await the full version to see what it really offers.
Anyway, I (and many here) will buy it anyway ;)
Tels
Tels on 13/3/2002 at 18:36
Glrofindel:
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What is that supposed to mean? Perhaps you would like to compete with the Arxs crew and try to make a better game?
You probably refer to my "we are not all alike" statement. I meant: Were are not all alike, we like different things, and I am glad, because otherwise the world would be dull (and I would have to like games like uh, well, lets say games different than Thief, UW, Arx etc ;)
So, I *like* realism, pseudo-realism or lets better call it immersion. Thief was 100% immerse. Mayn things did not work or were not possible, but the things that were implemented worked out very well and sucked you in. You never noticed the missing things.
I hope that Arx won't leave this "uh, I can do this (eat), but not this (sleep), why not?" feeling ;)
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Branching dialog is not only useful in choosing quests, it also lets the player define his attitude towards NPC's, which the NPC's also remember in later conversations (as in UW and Fallout).
My point was that if the game ignores the attitude anyway (e.g. NPC doesn't care whether you say "Yes, of course, maybe, give me money before I do it", he just takes it as a yes), than the multiply choice is useless. I think Arx is a bit simpler in that regard. Who knows?
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I enter magic mode, my cursor is off screen and I have to move it around to find it at all.
You don't need to. You can also cast the runes "behind your back", e.g. blind.
Try it ;)
(Yes, i think both things are bugs, as well as the fact that drawing mini-micro-runes also works)
Cheers,
Tels
Glic on 13/3/2002 at 18:40
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Originally posted by Tels
are some things (making the dog follow you, playing tricks with the goblins), but we have to await the full version to see what it really offers.
Tels Interesting, how do you make the dog follow you? I see there are still a few things I haven't tried yet in this demo ;)
xman on 13/3/2002 at 19:04
Feed a dog with something else than your calves and it becomes your best friend. :)
However, it's a little dumb for now and gets blocked by invisible walls quite often.
addink on 13/3/2002 at 19:39
I love branching conversations.
One of the reason they are left out - apparently - is that players tend to try out each choice within the conversation.
(Me = guilty as charged).
The thing is, that I usually finish a game at least once, before I start the analysis of the effects of dialog choices.
First I like to play the game as it was intended (playing it to discover the story) and then - when I liked what I played - start the search for missed (sub-plot/quest) opportunities. This search is not something that annoys me, it's something I enjoy.
I know the same 'branching storyline' effect is created by the possibility to use objects with NPCs. But that doesn't always have the result you expected. If I use an apple pie on a NPC, do I offer this to him/her or is it the initiation of a 'classic' circus act?
Somehow a braching conversation seems a more controllable way of interacting with NPCs. (then again: If I want a circus act I can always throw the damn thing :) )
Another thing about branching conversations is the possibility to get a character to repeat a hint or a quest description. This without the NPC coming across as a drunk helpdesk-employee, repeating the same information over and over again.
To avoid the need for repetative NPCs, there is the log system in the book, similar to UltimaIX. In UltimaIX virtually every conversation was summarized and added, this did not 'steer' the player, me, much. For what I can see in Arx, only the important bits are summarized. This has it's advantages ofcourse: Sometimes in UltimaIX finding a reference to a quest took quite some time (sifting through a phonebook of remarks). But it also has the disadvantage of spoiling the uncertainty about certain 'innocent' remarks made by NPCs.
The fact remains that with or without braching conversations, extended logbook content, canine intelligence or pizza, I am going to LOVE playing this game.
Kharan on 14/3/2002 at 04:05
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Originally posted by Tels My point was that if the game ignores the attitude anyway (e.g. NPC doesn't care whether you say "Yes, of course, maybe, give me money before I do it", he just takes it as a yes), than the multiply choice is useless. I think Arx is a bit simpler in that regard. Who knows?Not all choices have to matter, the player just has to be under the illusion that they matter. Meaning if the world is so immersive in other regards and the NPC's react appropriately to the responses and remember the player's attitude, he'll believe it and will have to use his brains in dealing with them.
That some will go through all choices is something that the designers just have to accept, just like that some will reload a game if they think they lost too much health in a battle. It's no reason to take away an important part of a game.
It's not going to ruin it or anything, but no choices
will make Arx a lesser game, the question is just how much and how much can they compensate for it.
ps. Yeah, let's have the dog as a permanent pet who follows you through levels and barks when he wants food ;).
Kharan on 14/3/2002 at 11:45
The obvious function of sleeping that Arkane seems to be missing would of course be to regain mana (which eating food does not give) in addition to health.
Glorofin on 14/3/2002 at 14:19
Then maybe it would be to easy to regain mana for mages. Now that have to buy mana potions.
Ps: My name is not Glorfindel ;)
