nomad of the pacific on 24/4/2005 at 18:53

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My invisibility works better in bright light than in darkness, which is the opposite of what I would want. They're completely invisible in light and barely discernable in dark. :p I'll see if I can do something that will be more realistic and try to do it in a way that will be portable for people who don't have the editor. No promises yet, though.

Maximius on 24/4/2005 at 23:31

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Nomad of the Pacific, how visible are they in the dark, does it ruin gameplay? Cause it sounds kind of neat, and really magical, for their invisibility to increase as the light increases. Like there is some kind of dark, negative energy magic that gives them this ability, but which is a disadvantage in total darkness. The enforcers stealth abilities could be kind of a warped mirror image of Garretts own, with flip flop-ed pluses and minuses. Garrett fears the light, but is the master of the dark. Enforcers have left behind much of their humanity and therefore can slip past the laws that govern light, but as every sorcery has a weakness darkness can no longer shield them. There is a rhyme and reason to it that appeals to me, at least for purpose of storyline and context.

SilverD on 25/4/2005 at 01:44

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I've gotta agree with Maximius on the Enforcers weapon issue. When I saw from the shadow what they were holding, I was left in quiet fearful admiration. It looked like a very fitting bladed weapon for a silent invisible killer, somethign they would be very, VERY close to use. Something that I wouldn't so much see swung, as much as suddenly feel buried into my back.

Then one spotted me.

When it actually USED its 'blaster', I was immediately completely torn from any immersion that was built up. The atmosphere of the thief universe just completely twisted and shattered, and suddenly I was just a faceless action hero being fired at by a bunch of repetitive clumsy drone enemies like in any other game.

(As a side note, I have to say that I liked thief 3, I just wish it was a different game. If it had been titled anything other than "Thief 3" I would have shrugged and been somewhat amused by a very competant stealth-centric game. But it wasn't just another stealth game, it was supposed to be Thief, and it failed at that.
Thinking about all the enforcers could have been in an enemy, and then thinking more and more about how much they're just another mindless smasher-enemy like can be found in any shoot-em-up in the world, it's to the point that it's just horribly sad. Someone else on these forums put it perfectly, in my eyes, when they said "It's like they didn't even playtest their own game." Or at least like they only playtested it on the Xbox.

I'm not a console hater, but consoles have a very distinct set of strengths going for them, just as PCs do. Some games have strengths which work well on both. Some games are just more fun when you're holding a controller. And some games just need the non-simplified atmosphere that's most often found on PCs...)

There were a few points where Thief 3 shone brightly. The cradle was easily one of the best levels I have played in any game. Gamals lair was done wonderfully, and the overlook building was a real joy to play. When I played those levels, I really felt like I was playing Thief again, not just 'OMGZ STEALTH GAMING'. Most of the game was ultimately done pretty well.

But a few things completely tore me out of it, and I'd say the Enforcers were the most damaging part of the games atmosphere. Anything that can be done to fix them, even if only in fan missions, would definately be wonderful.

Maximius on 25/4/2005 at 03:32

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Silver D, thanks for your points. When I saw the phasers, the first thing that got disentegrated was my sense of immersion.

Nomad, I think this kind of invisibility is perfect for the Enforcers. Its got a twisted magical rationale and balances their advantage with a disadvantage, a crucial point. Not that we would want them glowing in the dark, but just enough to reveal them to a sensitive eye like Garretts. They are tough bastards anyway and should remain so, a little weakness is fair.

The flashing in every 15 seconds is great as well, imagine an FM where Garrett is hiding from tons of guards when suddenly he senses an Enforcer on his tail. Now he's hiding from it, and the guards are suddenly jumpy cause someone swears they saw a monster for a second in the hallway. All kinda hell kicks up, guards and servant start freaking, Enforcer buzz rattling away in your head, he's bearing in on you, you are crapping your Thief-A-Roos.

Crispy on 25/4/2005 at 05:26

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Visible in shadows but invisible in light? SCHWEEEEET. :D

I think it would actually be pretty cool if their invisibility wore off once they died or got KOed. It adds a disadvantage to taking them out... even if you manage to do it, you still have to do it while nobody else is around and then hide the body, just like taking out a normal NPC. Otherwise, the quicker you take them out the better.

The only problem with that is that the AI speech would be all wrong... imagine if guards saw the corpse and, rather than saying "AAAAH IT'S A FREAKY DEAD GUY", said "he was too young to die". :cheeky:

I think NPCs should still be partially aware of them; the occasional flashing-in Nomad mentioned sounds awesome.

I'm no editor whiz, but changing the projectile they use sounds doable. I didn't mind the magical glyph blasts myself, but I'm not particularly attached to them either. So whatever. :)

I liked their voice set, so I'd be sorry to see it taken out altogether... but if it turns out that doing so improves them (which we can't really tell for sure until we play a game with them) then great!

I really need to start getting into all this advanced editing myself... I'm sick of messing around with brushes and BSP holes. :D