jtr7 on 8/4/2013 at 06:28
Yep. We have to keep erecting alternate universe concepts to divide this title from the trilogy, and when they say it's not a sequel or a prequel and they've cut out so much fantasy normal for that universe, that's what they want us to do, but they haven't done it enough. They've left too much in to confuse us. It's not a clean enough division. Look at the polls at this point. There is no Bell Curve, the top of the curves have been poked down with a sharp knife near the middle, lower of center. We are divided, their marketing and design choices have divided the fans. That's going to suck, no matter how great the game is.
Myth on 8/4/2013 at 07:22
I am adamant that you can make an outstanding, modern Thief game without butchering the lore or greatly displeasing the old fans of the series. The newer generations of gamers are not all ADD ridden, drooling crybabies. They play EZ mode games because they don't know any better and the publishers are too chicken to allow a challenging game with unique gameplay to come out.
We weren't all master thieves when TDP came out and I'm sure all of you went trough the Bafford demo like it was Quake 2 on the first go, and only later figured out how to Thief. Make a new Thief game that is true to the franchise and you will sow a whole new generation of die-hard fans from the current young gamers that will keep the series alive long after the 1999 gamers are done...
It's not a matter of "do we please the old fans or the new gamers?" - you can have the cake and eat it too, just make the gameplay intuitive, addictive and challenging (but not frustrating) and make the Thief world just as it should be - immersive to the point where you turn off the lights when you get spare time on your PC and when you see some 300 year old buildings in a picture you secretly remember a scene from The City.
jtr7 on 8/4/2013 at 07:32
Yes. Although I started with Metal Age and did not play it Quake style, my biggest adaptation struggle was thinking I was supposed to do something with all the tools and potions and steal as much as possible to buy enough to survive the next mission. I didn't know how much power Garrett himself had, yet, and how many ways there were to deal with undead other than avoidance or running. Getting Dark Project, my biggest struggle continued to be not knowing how much power Garrett had not using tools, and struggling with having less options with the game controllers. Once I had an a-ha moment, The City was my domain. No longer did I need tools (except for mission objectives), no longer did I need to gather loot for more tools, or to fear the AIs beyond not getting caught... Other than time to play, I can play as fast or slow as I want in those titles, ghost or target practice. I mostly like removing some AIs to open up free exploration, but can set challenges for myself. I personally was tired of the Quake/Doom/Nukem stuff, and I knew just enough about Thief before I played it that I could take my time and wouldn't be rushed, and that gameplay was quiet and I was a sneaker.
Nuth on 8/4/2013 at 08:40
I came to Thief more from the 1st-person RPG route (UU 1 & 2, TES: Arena & Daggerfall) than the shooter route. I've always had a slow, cautious playstyle, so Thief may not have been as big of an adjustment as it was for a lot of people. But boy, did it hit all the notes that I was looking for in a game and a lot of notes that I didn't even know I was looking for. It's still my favorite game of all-time, and I've been playing video games, well, since there have been video games.
jtr7 on 8/4/2013 at 08:47
Exactly! Most of us, if not all of us, have played many games, and Thief hit a sweet spot never copied by any other company except in parts, never preceded by any other company except in parts. Thief spoiled a lot of us, not even half of us, but it's not an uncommon story here.
Starker on 8/4/2013 at 15:16
Quote Posted by Myth
I am adamant that you can make an outstanding, modern Thief game without butchering the lore or greatly displeasing the old fans of the series. The newer generations of gamers are not all ADD ridden, drooling crybabies. They play EZ mode games because they don't know any better and the publishers are too chicken to allow a challenging game with unique gameplay to come out.
Exactly -- this will never happen under the publisher model. I really hope Kickstarter stirs things up and gets some mid-sized independent studios going.
Oh and about the bow... it was never the question whether it was unrealistic, but whether it fits the setting. Based on what we have seen so far, I'm inclined to say that it fits just fine. NuGarrett seems much more of a show-off and a thrill-seeker. I can totally see someone like him having a bow like this.
Renzatic on 8/4/2013 at 15:28
Quote Posted by Starker
Exactly -- this will never happen under the publisher model. I really hope Kickstarter stirs things up and gets some mid-sized independent studios going.
It happens all the time under the publisher model. Some publishers are pretty bad, that's hard to deny (EA, Activision), but some of you seem to think it's a wasteland of casual Facebook games and Call of Duty clones, completely bereft of anything worthwhile.
That said, Kickstarter has led to some wonderful, wonderful things.
Starker on 8/4/2013 at 17:14
Quote Posted by Renzatic
It happens all the time under the publisher model. Some publishers are pretty bad, that's hard to deny (EA, Activision), but some of you seem to think it's a wasteland of casual Facebook games and Call of Duty clones, completely bereft of anything worthwhile.
That said, Kickstarter has led to some wonderful, wonderful things.
Reportedly, Brian Fargo took his Wasteland 2 project to every publisher that mattered. Publishers aren't interested in artistic integrity or things like that, they just want to make money. Every once in a while, the stars line up and these interests coincide, but sooner or later you will see people wanting to make the game more popular, more accessible, more profitable. What we then get is the equivalent of Michael Bay movies. Lots of spectacle and little substance.
I'm not even going to go into the contracts that are very low risk to the publishers, but bleed out the developers and leave them no control over their own product.
Renzatic on 8/4/2013 at 17:54
I have no particular love for publishers, and it's very obvious they're out to make a quick buck. But like I said, some are worse than others, and SM has more or less left EM alone to do their thing. Oh, I'm sure they've put a few requests in. Like AWESOME GRAFFIX and whatnot, but they let them do their thing otherwise.
Though I think you're applying too much personal thought into it. Did they turn down Wasteland 2 (their loss) due to not agreeing with Fargo's artistic integrity, or that they looked at it and think that a turn based overhead RPG based on an old DOS game that came out 30 years ago just wouldn't sell. I think it's more the latter. They didn't give it a chance simply because it didn't seem to have much selling power by itself. But some publishers do realize that you shouldn't screw with your developers too much while they're making their games, specially ones working on old critical darling cash cows like Thief and Deus Ex (and yeah, they are cash cows). So long as EM looks like they're doing a good job, and talking about how awesome the kids will like X and Y while doing jazz hands at milestone meetings, SE probably won't step in or impose themselves.
Starker on 8/4/2013 at 18:26
Quote Posted by Renzatic
...and SM has more or less left EM alone to do their thing.
How do you know that?
Quote Posted by Renzatic
Though I think you're applying too much personal thought into it. Did they turn down Wasteland 2 (their loss) due to not agreeing with Fargo's artistic integrity, or that they looked at it and think that a turn based overhead RPG based on an old DOS game that came out 30 years ago just wouldn't sell.
Wasteland 2 was a game that lots of people had desperately wanted. Wasteland was not just any old DOS game, it was the game that directly inspired Fallout. Plus Fargo had people that made the original Fallout on board. Sounds like a dream come true, right? The publishers did not care, and the reason they turned it down was because it wasn't going to sell millions of copies. They did not care if it was going to be profitable, they did not even want to hear the cost of the project.
So, back to my original point.. saying that it's possible to make a publisher funded Thief title that will please the hard-core Thief fans is naive. A hundred thousand fans don't even blip on their radar. Even Tomb Raider was considered a failure, because it only sold about 3 million copies the first month.
