Realism for Thief - TTLG Forums

Myth on 7/4/2013 at 18:36

I'm what most would call a history nut, thus my views don't usually align with that of the masses of players and gamers. The stuff which I notice and which bothers me does not matter to most people, or if it does, they can ignore it. Like the *whaching* sound that swords make when they are being drawn in movies and games, the creaking sound that wooden bows make when they are being drawn, holding a 90 lbs bow drawn against an enemy for dramatic effect and of course, the ever so popular "(http://images.techhive.com/images/article/2013/04/2k13-apr-4-thief-screenshot-019-100031859-orig.jpg) gangsta sideways bow" draw technique which is completely bogus. Fortunately a likable English fellow makes videos about this stuff, and while it's not Thief related you will immediately see why I don't want to see these bad misconceptions in a Thief game.

I can and will suspend disbelief (especially concerning magic, steampunk tech and Garrett's Keeper training), but I won't tolerate "gangsta bow" for the "coolness factor" of it (although, me tolerating or not tolerating such things doesn't really amount to much apart from angry threads here or there).

I saw a video where Eidos made that absurd prop for Garret's new automatic composite bow (which is entirely absurd and you can see that it has virtually no draw weight and thus cannot function as a bow), and I'd really like it if the game was made realistic as far as the medieval aspects of it are concerned.

Here is lindybeige explaining with good English why these things just don't work IRL. He has done archery so he knows what he is talking about:

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7ZpDIpqDwxI&list=UU9pgQfOXRsp4UKrI8q0zjXQ&index=26) Stringing and Drawig a bow. or, why "gansta bow" and a self-stringing automatic bow don't make any sense.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzbfuI0PMdA&list=UU9pgQfOXRsp4UKrI8q0zjXQ&index=208) Drawing swords and what kind of sound they actually make.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3GHzSg5P-Jw) Yet more about bows and why Garrett couldn't hold an arrow drawn indefinitely in Thief 1 and 2.

(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HQZqbGME5HY&list=UU9pgQfOXRsp4UKrI8q0zjXQ&index=15) Using torches indoors The very first thing I thought of was Thief when I watched this. To be honest I didn't know torches were so noxious, but It would be a nice change if Thief used the correct medieval lighting methods.

Do you think such realism has a place in a Thief game? Do you find it important or not?

Vivian on 7/4/2013 at 18:47

The folding bow has some kind of hydraulic or pneumatic elements. If we're fanwanking, that is. So there is a plausible mechanism for self-tensioning at least. Although folding it against the system would presumably be quite hard. I mean, I'm not saying it's not unrealistic. There are a bunch of weird springs and all sorts of crap in the limbs of Garrett's new bow. But plausibility in any piece of fiction is always going to be highly dependent on the expertise of the author and of the viewer. As someone who is into medieval bows in particular, I'm sure you do get irked by inconsistencies in what appears to be a medieval setting having some kind of fictional bow that wouldn't work without some kind of hand-wavium. As someone who is not, I can ignore it - it seems to me to be a bow, I have some idea what to expect from it, as a bow, and for me the illusion is satisfactory. It's like I can't watch Jurassic Park because the dilophosaurus is the size of a velociraptor and the velociraptor is the size of a utahraptor and the rearing apatosaurus would have shattered it's femurs.

SubJeff on 7/4/2013 at 18:55

Well you can get your knickers in a twist about whatever you like but calling the mechanical bow "gansta" is just silly.

And Garrett doesn't hold his bow indefinitely in T1 and 2, he gets tired, it wavers and you have to put it down.

No, I don't find this amount of realism to be relevant for Thief.

Myth on 7/4/2013 at 18:56

I'm pretty sure that with modern-day tech we could make something of the sort. Festo made a pneumatic bird that can fly, so why not? But it would require modern day CAD systems, modern-day alloys and modern-day mechanisms. If it was Dishonored with those Half-Life 2 style force fields, I'd be OK with it. But they are cutting away all the magical stuff right? This bow is so advanced it's borderline magic...

Myth on 7/4/2013 at 18:58

Quote Posted by Subjective Effect

Gagnsta bow is the way PC games make the protagonist hold it sideways and also draw it sideways, it has no practical value to the user who is trying to shoot the weapon.

The mechanical bow, as I said, is nonsense especially for a game that is supposedly doing away with unrealistic stuff like magic and zombies.

Also, if you would read my post more carefully you'd see that I'm actually giving a reason why he couldn't hold it indefinitely in 1 and 2. As far as I can remember he could do so in 3, which was a downgrade for realism (I may be mistaken).

Vivian on 7/4/2013 at 18:58

Well, a direct quote would be "It's a very important part of the story, but we didn't want your character to shoot fireballs", so it sounds like magic is still an in-universe thing. I agree with the sideways bow thing. I presume it's to avoid taking too much screen up or something? But yeah, you're limiting the draw distance to the distance between your bow hand and your chest, basically. And it would be difficult to aim. Is that right?

Renzatic on 7/4/2013 at 18:59

The bow isn't much less realistic than 3/4ths of the things the Mechanists had in Thief 2.

Robots. Cameras. Intercom systems? A collapsible bow ain't a thing compared to that.

Vivian on 7/4/2013 at 19:02

Yeah. The friction on a mechanical calculator / babbage engine thing (which I kind of assumed was supposed to be in the children of karras) capable of acting like some kind of autonomous security system would make it explode.

Renzatic on 7/4/2013 at 19:16

Exactly. If I were to overanalyze it, I could say that the bow looks way too thick and cumbersome for a sneaky thief to carry around with him, collapsible or not.

But then again, Garrett carried a longbow and a broadsword around with him in the previous games, which are probably much more of a pain in the ass to deal with when you're sneaking through ductwork. So. You know...

As long as it works within the fiction of the setting, I'm alright with it. And at least the developers tried making it semi plausible in the sense that it could possibly work as a bow. Plus it's not so overly engineered that it'd require a modern CAD program to create. People have been making considerably more complicated machines for thousands of years. The Greeks had the Antikythera mechanism, whatever it was. The Persians and Chinese have been making incredibly complex automatons since before the 8th century. Europeans have been making watches since before the 14th century.

If it were CAD designed, it'd be far, far sleeker than what we're seeing in the game. The bulkiness is practically what sells its plausibility.

SubJeff on 7/4/2013 at 19:18

I'd have prefered a crossbow actually but I'm not that bothered by this new collapsible thing.