Rate Human Revolution vs. other LGS-inspired franchise games - by heywood
Skinner's pigeon on 7/12/2011 at 07:52
And the new gaming generation's assault on the English language continues. Because apparently, when I wasn't looking, the rules of grammar were changed so that 'its character system follows traditional RPG character progression' means the same as 'it's a traditional RPG'.
:nonplussed:
Although these days the term is arbitrarily slapped on to titles that have upgradable stats and little else, I'm pedantic enough to say that neither Deus Ex nor DX:HR are 'pure' CRPGs. In 'pure' CRPGs, player involvement is limited to making broader decisions and tactical choices. Actions performed by the character(s) are determined by stats, not the player's twitch skill. In action RPGs, actions performed by the character(s) involve stats as well as the player's skill. Thus, although both use the SPECIAL system (which closely follows GURPS), Fallout is a 'pure' CRPG, whereas Fallout: New Vegas is, like Deus Ex, an FPS-RPG hybrid. In F:NV as in DX1, although your character stats can determine the effectiveness of your chosen approach in gameplay, you cannot play either without a bare minimum of player skill. For instance, you could use 10 mm pistols in all three games, but without the right investments in stats, you're not going to be very good with them; in DX1 and F:NV (outside VATS), you also need the basic ability to point and shoot at the right target.
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As for broadening my horizons, I think I have a pretty good culture about video games. My first console was a Pong machine in the end of the 70s and I certainly played an awful number of games since then. Certainly too many.
IIT we learn that an alleged wide exposure to games is as valuable with regard to critical analysis as an alleged wide experience of literature.
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I just registered to say, I hate all of you.
Hi. I'm a new member too, so don't assume that this thread is representative of all discussions here. The bickering should be reduced dramatically now that I'm being ignored, so there's still a chance that this thread might yield an insightful discussion. If you have anything to add, join in.
Thirith on 7/12/2011 at 08:25
Quote Posted by Skinner's pigeon
Although these days the term is arbitrarily slapped on to titles that have upgradable stats and little else, I'm pedantic enough to say that neither Deus Ex nor DX:HR are 'pure' CRPGs. In 'pure' CRPGs, player involvement is limited to making broader decisions and tactical choices. Actions performed by the character(s) are determined by stats, not the player's twitch skill. In action RPGs, actions performed by the character(s) involve stats as well as the player's skill. Thus, although both use the SPECIAL system (which closely follows GURPS), Fallout is a 'pure' CRPG, whereas Fallout: New Vegas is, like Deus Ex, an FPS-RPG hybrid. In F:NV as in DX1, although your character stats can determine the effectiveness of your chosen approach in gameplay, you cannot play either without a bare minimum of player skill. For instance, you could use 10 mm pistols in all three games, but without the right investments in stats, you're not going to be very good with them; in DX1 and F:NV (outside VATS), you also need the basic ability to point and shoot at the right target.
Arguably, games like
Fallout and
Baldur's Gate etc. are RPG-strategy/tactics hybrids. It's just that the elements that are about player skills are different ones. In terms of actual
role playing (which, I admit, opens another can of worms), I'd say there isn't anything inherently more RP to the turn-based or real-time strategy/tactics combat gameplay than there is to the FPS elements in any
Deus Ex. Your character in
Fallout doesn't magically win battles due to better strategy because of high INT, just as much as your character in
Fallout 3 doesn't magically win battles due to high stats. The 'bare minimum of player skill' is still there - it's simply other skills.
I've always enjoyed RPGs for the stories, characters, choices within a rule-bound framework, e.g. creating a smart, charismatic character who can talk his way out of tricky situations or a self-righteous paladin who approaches every situation with a binary set of ethics. Combat in what you call 'pure' CRPGs figures into this as little as does combat in what you call 'FPS-RPG hybrids'. Again, both types of RPGs are arguably hybrids - the role-playing is just partnered with a different genre.
june gloom on 7/12/2011 at 08:44
No it's not. You're wrong, because Skinner's Pigeon says so, and you don't know what you're talking about.
amidointhisrite
Quote Posted by Skinner's pigeon
Hi. I'm a new member too, so don't assume that this thread is representative of all discussions here.
Yes it is. And we largely have folks like you to thank for that.
Thirith on 7/12/2011 at 08:50
Sorry, dethtoll - while I don't agree with a lot of what skinnerspigeon is saying in this thread, I think the pedantry and "Imrightyourewrong!!" have become pretty much equally bad on both sides of the discussion... and at least skinnerspigeon is interested in having an actual conversation, compared to certain spitting mammals that have posted in this thread.
Skinner's pigeon on 7/12/2011 at 09:36
Quote Posted by Thirith
In terms of actual
role playing (which, I admit, opens another can of worms),
Yeah. I was really hoping we could avoid this tangent. Let's not go there.
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Your character in
Fallout doesn't magically win battles due to better strategy because of high INT, just as much as your character in
Fallout 3 doesn't magically win battles due to high stats. The 'bare minimum of player skill' is still there - it's simply other skills.
That's true as far as the tactics are concerned, but the stats also play a significant role in other aspects of the role-playing (argh, that word!) in Fallout. This is, after all, the game where you could talk the final boss to death. INT, for example, determines the amount of skills you get and some of the dialogue options. You could even be denied certain quests if you played as the ever-popular dumb character. Fallout 3 doesn't make very good use of the SPECIAL system IMO, but in F:NV several quests allow you to progress further through a skill or character point check.
Thirith on 7/12/2011 at 09:51
Thing is, I find the discussion of "what is a 'pure' CRPG" academic at best, pointless at worst. Arguably stats matter more in Deus Ex or Fallout 3 than in most of the Ultimas; old-school CRPGs like Wizardry or the SSI AD&D games were primarily about combat tactics and exploring dungeons, but there was little to no role-playing in any meaningful way.
RPG has always been a vague, catch-all term. The Bard's Tale and Pools of Radiance? Dungeon crawls with more or less tactical combat and a stats system. Ultima? Adventure game with a stats system. I fail to see how calling any specific RPG or RPG system 'pure' goes much beyond saying, "Well, *I* like *this one* best." We pretend that these categories are clear and fixed and then use this pretend-clarity to score points in arguments.
And IMO none of these connect particularly well to people discussing the successes and failures of Human Revolution, though we like to couch our opinions in what sounds like hard-and-fast facts.
Edit: To bring my haughty, smug diatribe to a banal end - if we could step away from notions such as "the real thing" and "pure XYZs" and "it's a mini-game - QED!" and talk about why we liked or disliked a certain feature without resorting to laziness, strawmen etc., there might be less of a risk of these conversations turning into NMA-style pedantry.
june gloom on 7/12/2011 at 10:04
Quote Posted by Thirith
and at least skinnerspigeon is interested in having an actual conversation
Granted.
However:
Much like pedophiles are interested in sex, he's doing it wrong and all it does is make people angry. He's snobbish, presumptious, condescending, and seems to be arguing from the position that what he thinks to be true is plain fact, and so disagreeing with him is like disagreeing with reality.
In short, he's just like a lot of TTLG posters and (
http://www.systemshock.org/index.php?topic=1995.0) that's why TTLG's going down the shitter.
And yes I'm totally talking about him like he's not here, because I refuse to address him directly and thusly get sucked into the pedantry vortex.
Skinner's pigeon on 7/12/2011 at 11:30
Quote Posted by Thirith
And IMO none of these connect particularly well to people discussing the successes and failures of
Human RevolutionI agree; the extent to which DX1 and DX:HR were RPGs matters little except to hardcore RPG fans. It's the gameplay effects of the character systems that actually matter (which is what I was actually talking about in my original posts), especially when coupled with the XP systems of the games.
Quote Posted by dethtoll
Much like pedophiles are interested in sex, he's doing it wrong and all it does is make people angry. He's snobbish, presumptious, condescending, and seems to be arguing from the position that what he thinks to be true is plain fact, and so disagreeing with him is like disagreeing with reality.
...
Since it's come to the sexual deviant equivalent of Godwin's law, I think this thread has exhausted all possibility of intelligent discussion. And I'd better leave before there are calls for me to be voted off the Website.
june gloom on 7/12/2011 at 20:58
all in favor say aye
Llama on 7/12/2011 at 21:42
Quote Posted by dethtoll
No it's not. You're wrong, because Skinner's Pigeon says so, and you don't know what you're talking about.
amidointhisrite
Yes it is. And we largely have folks like you to thank for that.
oh the irony.
