Rate Human Revolution vs. other LGS-inspired franchise games

june gloom on 30/11/2011 at 18:37

Every time i scroll down the forum front page to the Deus Ex section and I see that little light bulb turned on indicating new posts, I sigh.

Sulphur on 30/11/2011 at 18:47

But I like the Sisyphus analogy. It should've been trotted out ages ago.

Papy on 30/11/2011 at 23:51

Quote Posted by Skinner's pigeon

it's rather ironic that you should think that this personal annoyance is an excuse rather than a reason

I'll be more direct.

I once had a monitor with a single deffective dot. It was always bright red. From a rational point of view, that single red dot was completely insignificant. Yet, I found this single red dot disproportionately annoying. (Until one day I just decided to live with it.)

When you say that the takedown animation is "jarring interruption to the flow of the game", this is exactly the same thing. This is clearly a ridiculous exaggeration. You make a mountain out of a pebble. The reason of your emotional reaction to takedowns animations is not a "flaw" in the game, that's only an excuse, the reason is your own personal psychological issue. Was I direct enough?

Quote Posted by Skinner's pigeon

I'm glad you were able to look past that [cutscenes]. It certainly made for a better game experience for you.

Just to be clear, I'm certainly not saying Human Revolution is perfect. Far from it in fact. I'm only saying that overall it is as good as Deus Ex.

So about cutscenes... I'll give you an example of something which bothered me. At the end of Montréal, I was carrying a hacked turret with me. But then, the cutscene before the boss battle started and I saw myself without the turret (and obviously the fight was without the turret). I found this annoying. It was a defective pixel. But the thing is this I don't make a mountain out of a pebble.

Quote Posted by Skinner's pigeon

If you found the boss battles in Bioshock 2 difficult

No, I found them boring. I don't like boss battles (I didn't like them with Deus Ex) but at least the one with Human Revolution are not as boring. You say that "pacifist players will find themselves gimped"? Well... why do you insist on being a "pacifist" when it seems obvious that a more balanced character is a better choice?

Quote Posted by Skinner's pigeon

You seem to have a very limited idea of CRPGs

When I was young I used to play tabletop RPG. I was the Dungeon Master of our AD&D games and a player for our other games (Star Wars, RuneQuest, Paranoïa...). I also played computer RPG since the 80s. So I think I know a thing or two about RPG and CRPG.

Anyway I think you should read again what I wrote because you failed to understand it.

Quote Posted by Skinner's pigeon

[about character progression] In this regard, Invisible War's system was quite successful

With Invisible War, my character was maxed out at about middle of the game. It means that for second half of the game, there was no character progression at all. You call that successful?

Quote Posted by Skinner's pigeon

if you value hard work as a reward in itself

No, I value the result of hard work. As I said, when I played SpaceChem, the more work I put into a problem, the more I was proud of my solution. Can you understand where is the reward?

Quote Posted by Skinner's pigeon

And if you had to deliberately resist the game mechanics [cover system] to have fun

I'll repeat what I said : "But in my case, I don't use the cover system and I don't feel I'm missing anything (except cheating). Playing without the cover system feels perfectly right."

And from that, you came to the conclusion that I "had to deliberately resist it"? Can you explain to me how?

Of course the game is easier with the cover system. The same way the game is easier with all help option in the menu turned on. In fact, the game would even be easier if there was a God mode. But being easier is not necessarily my only goal. For example, I chose to play at the "Deus Ex" difficulty level. What about you? Did you played it at the easiest level?

Anyway... Just look at the lower left corner of the game screen. Do you see the small radar?

Quote Posted by Skinner's pigeon

Then would you kindly explain how DX:HR's themes of transhumanism were examined better than Bioshock 2's themes of selfhood

Easy... you hated cutscene so you didn't pay attention to them. You hated the hacking mini-game so you didn't read all e-mails. In fact, I'm also guessing you didn't even bother to talk to random people.

Skinner's pigeon on 1/12/2011 at 06:56

Quote Posted by Papy

You make a mountain out of a pebble.

The reason of your emotional reaction to takedowns animations is not a "flaw" in the game, that's only an excuse, the reason is your own personal psychological issue.

I'm starting to sympathize with Llama and his preference for terse rejoinders. I'm going to quote myself quite liberally from now on, because you're obviously just skimming through my posts.

Quote Posted by Skinner's pigeon

Obviously the people who liked playing the game weren't bothered too much by these, or hardly noticed them. For me, however, DX:HR was the biggest disappointment of the year, so its flaws stand out even more.

Further to the point, I do not want to see a stupid twat dislocating several joints in someone's body for the umpteenth time, justified only by some arbitrary metric of 'coolness'. That's the long and short of it. Count the number of enemies in the game. Subtract the number that appear during the crashed chopper fight. Reduce the result by about 3% for the times I chose to use the tranquilizer rifle instead. That's the number of times I had to suffer through the cinematic takedowns. And I will rage just as hard (nay, more) if EM replaces the quick-and-efficient blackjacking with violent-yet-mysteriously-silent-and-time-freezing cinematic takedowns in Thi4f. That you don't have a problem with them is of absolutely no relevance to my experience of the game. I didn't ask for this, and I reserve the right to declare it.

You keep harping on the 'character progression'--okay, let's talk about how un-upgraded cinematic takedowns are essentially 'I win' buttons against individual non-boss mooks throughout the game, even the Belltower SpecOps heavies.

I'd like you to tell me how the six seconds wasted on a takedown is an improvement of any kind over a simple melee attack without the entirely unnecessary interruption.

Please also explain how, except for the choke hold and (arguably) the punch to the face, the nonlethal melee attacks in DX:HR even qualify as silent takedowns.

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You say that "pacifist players will find themselves gimped"? Well... why do you insist on being a "pacifist" when it seems obvious that a more balanced character is a better choice?

Yes, killing bosses is exactly what we should expect when a game is advertised as fully supporting a pacifist approach and ghosting. These must be some of those re-definitions that are so common to this gaming generation, like 'An RPG is a game where you play a role.' I'm also reminded of some people's justification for the Hyron project: 'It was foreshadowed by the statements that it could not be built without augmented workers.' Apparently 'augmentation' (augment, verb, to make larger; enlarge in size, number, strength, or extent; increase), which means the improvement or addition of abilities over average human ones for 99% of the game, also somehow connotes 'human brains used as computers by an evil machine' for the final 1%. I am curious--is there an actual precedent for a machine that requires human brains to function in the Deus Ex universe (which has several very powerful AIs), or is it just a contrived asspull to show that technology is evil?

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Well, considering that you think that a game can't be a CRPG if all of its character builds can use a gun, I think I'm perfectly justified in saying that your experience is limited. Either that or you've forgotten a great deal. Otherwise, please explain how the following games aren't CRPGs: Darklands, Fallout, Arcanum, Vampire: The Masquerade: Bloodlines.

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Anyway I think you should read again what I wrote because you failed to understand it.

Ha, now this is funny, because you say:

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It means that for second half of the game, there was no character progression at all. You call that successful?

Whereas I had said (bolded again for your convenience):

Quote Posted by Skinner's pigeon

If you'd read my post, I had actually claimed that Invisible War's character system was about tailoring your character to a chosen playstyle, not incremental character development, hence the welcome ability to respec your character at several points over the course of the game to suit your approach. In this regard, Invisible War's system was quite successful.

Quote Posted by Papy

No, I value the result of hard work. As I said, when I played SpaceChem, the more work I put into a problem, the more I was proud of my solution.

Pushing the ~~pebble~~ boulder up the mountain should get harder the the more tired you get, so your reward should increase incrementally. Enjoy!

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And from that, you came to the conclusion that I "had to deliberately resist it"?

You avoided the intended gameplay mechanics. Oh, of course, this must be another of those modern re-definitions: 'An FPS is a cover-based shooter where you ignore the cover system'. I've played Mass Effect without using cover at the highest difficulty setting--does that mean it isn't a cover-based shooter either?

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Wrong, wrong and wrong. That's your answer--that I didn't play it right? And how exactly is this an examination of the respective themes of each game? But I'll get you started. This is a very basic and dry overview of Bioshock 2, mostly because I can't be arsed just on your account:

In Bioshock, you play as the son of Andrew Ryan. Through most of the game, you have no actual individual will, as you're being manipulated by Fontaine's Project WYK. Then you meet your father, and he chooses to die of his own volition, his final execution of the Self (pun intended). Soon after, your free will is restored, and then Ken Levine runs out of ideas.

Bioshock 2 inverts this entirely. You play as a Big Daddy, the adopted father of Eleanor Lamb. Throughout the game you're tracked and taunted by Sofia Lamb, who believes that humanity is constrained by biological drives, specifically of the Self, and intends to effect a truly altruistic society by destroying the Self using Eleanor. By rescuing your daughter, you grant her the gift of individual will. In addition, whereas Bioshock's 'morality' was nothing more than choosing your own alignment via the little sisters (with the only consequence being which outro is shown), in Bioshock 2 there's a more meaningful effect: Daddy's not-so-little girl watches your every move, and your choices as regards the little sisters as well as the NPCs will determine how she chooses to live her life. Ultimately, Bioshock 2 isn't about you; it's about the legacy you give your daughter.

Please also refer to Richard Cobbett's longer analyses of Bioshock 2's themes at (www.richardcobbett.com). Now it's your turn. Explain how DX:HR's writing is superior.

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But the thing is this I don't make a mountain out of a pebble.

So, essentially, I'm anal and should get over it? I agree about the former, but no, I don't have to get over it, and not if dealing with these issues would actually improve the game experience.

DDL on 1/12/2011 at 08:33

Fucking hell. I'm totally with dethtoll on this one. This thread is just getting painful to read. It's worse than the metro's letters section, which is saying something.

FWIW, pigeon: you do realise that takedowns were entirely optional, right? Hate em? Don't use em. Job done.

Skinner's pigeon on 1/12/2011 at 08:49

Quote Posted by DDL

FWIW, pigeon: you do realise that takedowns were entirely optional, right? Hate em? Don't use em. Job done.

It's possible to be a melee-based stealth player and not use the cinematic takedowns? Why was I not informed?!

Briareos H on 1/12/2011 at 08:57

FWIW, DDL: you do realise that reading this thread is entirely optional, right? Hate it? Don't read it. Job done.

DDL on 1/12/2011 at 09:36

Briareos: But then what would I get all angried up about?

Skinner: no, no it's not possible to be a melee-based stealth player without takedowns. If you insist on being a melee based stealth player, then really you only have yourself to blame. For fuck's sake.

Koki on 1/12/2011 at 09:42

I don't insist on being a melee only stealth player, the game is just designed to give you more XP when you are.

In before "if you want more XP you only have yourself to blame"

Skinner's pigeon on 1/12/2011 at 09:59

Quote Posted by DDL

If you insist on being a melee based stealth player, then really you only have yourself to blame. For fuck's sake.

I'm to blame for the game's questionable design choices. :rolleyes: