The Black Cat on 23/4/2018 at 02:43

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IAmTheWalrus on 23/4/2018 at 09:26

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Did you know you can kill zombies? You can flashbomb them, shoot em with fire or use explosives such as the mine and the best way is to use holy water and water arrows to blow them up in 2 hits.
Great list btw. I see we have many of the same issues and likes. I really hope you like DS. It's bloody incredible.

IAmTheWalrus on 23/4/2018 at 13:02

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Oh, yes, the floating Garrett glitch. Very annoying. When I found out you could fix it by firing a broadhead arrow (or any other arrow, you also don't need to shoot it just hold and press space to put it away) it stopped bothering me. I actually think Sneaky Upgrade may have fixed this as I haven't experienced it in ages.

Athanor on 28/11/2021 at 20:37

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I like doing tier lists so I'll answer with one!
I only started playing recently, just finished TG and T2 (Expert). I also watched a lot of Klatremus' videos (which are really good! I saw him posting a few times in the forum so if you read my comment, I wanted to thank you for your great content!) so my opinions might in some cases be a bit influenced by him.

I like to do S/A/B/C tiers, starting with S and C and then sorting the middle of the pack into A/B depending of what definitely don't belong in S (for B) and what definitely don't belong in C (for A) in my opinion. S-tier missions are masterpieces (in my opinion), A-tier really good, B-tier still cool, and C-tier are missions that I would definitely like to avoid playing if I played again through the games.

I'll start by giving opinions about each mission in a chronological order.

1- Lord Bafford's Manor: I think this is clearly a B tier mission. It's not a bad mission, but it is quite bland and easy. Obviously, this is an introduction mission, and it does its job of introducing the game very well, but it is still an introduction mission. If I gave more importance to the context of the mission when assigning a tier to this mission, it would clearly be higher (A tier).
2- Break From Cragscleft Prison: I didn't hesitate much to classify this mission either, to me it is an A tier mission. It is a very good mission in my opinion, and like Lord Bafford's Manor I would rank it higher if I gave more importance to the context of the mission (probably into lower S tier), because after finishing the first mission, you can wonder whether each mission will be like that, and I found it refreshing to already have to adapt to different types of enemies, map layouts, etc. I think the general atmosphere of the mission is both a good and a bad thing. To be honest, I like most of the atmosphere but I think the wailings in the prison are a bit too much, you have to hear them constantly and it does not really feel natural/immersive. I feel that in general the game uses audio very well, and it especially uses silences very well to build tension, and I think that the prisoners audio is a bit too repetitive in my opinion.
3- Down In The Bonehoard: To me it's clearly a S tier mission. I love the map layout, which is large with a lot of verticality, a bit confusing without being too much confusing. I loved a lot this mission despite me being generally afraid of everything in video games and playing like a chicken. It's even better with the context, you are again surprised of the variety of the missions after finishing Bafford and Cragscleft and are introduced to even more enemies, and also traps (yes, there is one in Cragscleft but it is a minor thing in the level). I think the layout is great, the difficulty well designed, and the cherry on the top being the atmosphere, especially with the sounds of the Horn of Quintus.
4- Assassins: I know this is a loved mission, but to me it is no more than a B tier mission. Like Klatremus, I think this mission is far too easy, bland, and although the general plot of the mission is fun, it doesn't really fit that well in the overall game plot. I don't like the city part (in general, I think the city parts are usually not that well designed, in both TG and T2), and the mansion isn't really special either, although I don't think it is a bad mission. That being said, to be fair I think that, when taking the context, it could be rated higher, maybe in A tier, because it is quite a refreshing pause after the more difficult and generally intense Bonehoard/Cragscleft missions. If Thief Gold was only about supernatural and dungeon crawling stuff, it would also be a lesser game in my opinion, so I still think this mission is cool and makes sense in the game. By no means I would put it in the C tier, but it is still not that good imo.
5- Thieves' Guild: The mission that most people seem to either consider as their most hated mission or one of their favorites. I think this mission actually has very strong positives and very strong negatives, thus I feel that I cannot put it in either S or C tier. To me it's a (high) B tier, although it could also be a low A tier. Playing through this level I found myself to backtrack in empty sewers for 20 minutes and I found that frustrating. Backtracking can be a good design, and I feel it usually is good in those games, but in this mission I really didn't like it. I like the concept of the mission, and I also like that this map proves that you can have a bit of a challenge even in human missions, but I don't like that the mission withholds the plot of the game, and I don't remember the aesthetics of the mission being anything special (especially the sewers, obviously).
6- The Sword: Do we really need to discuss about where to rank this mission? In my opinion, this is the best mission in the games and is hands down S tier. Aesthetics are marvelous, sound is really great, the level is very twisted and daring from a design standpoint, it would be weird if every level was like this but as an exception it really feels great and also really introduces the plot of the game in a great way. I think it could have been even better with more non-humans enemies, I haven't played TDP but in TG, since it is after Thieves' Guild (and Assassins), maybe it would have been a little better with non-humans. Maybe an introduction to the "nature"-themed enemies in the highest levels of the mansion? (although it would be more revealing of the plot twist, which would be a bad thing. I don't really know what would be the optimal choices) Still, the mission is a piece of (twisted) art and I loved it a great deal.
7- The Haunted Cathedral: Solid A tier mission for me. I loved the mission, but I don't see it as a masterpiece. It felt rewarding finishing this mission considering how scared I was while going through it (I knew RTC was seen as even scarier, but I did not know the details.) My playing style in those games is to knockout every enemy (or almost every enemy) possible to have a free way, so this mission was a challenge because I could not knockout zombies and I did not want to let those apparitions roam freely in the level. The sounds of the apparition are a delight! I'm talking about their "idle" sounds obviously, but I also enjoyed the "volume" of the noise they made when dying, making me really scared that I would attract zombies or even more apparitions. (After roaming through the Bonehoard I wasn't THAT scared of the zombies anymore, but I still did what I could to reduce my exposition to them to a minimum) I like the variety of the enemies, of the map sections, a very solid mission in my opinion.
8- The Mage Towers: Another controversial mission (I think?) that people seem to either really love or hate, like Thieves' Guild, and like Thieves' Guild I would personally put it in the middle, at a (high) B tier. On the bad side I really didn't enjoy mages. To a stealth player (avoiding combat), it's like a plain old guard, but with really annoying and unconvincing voice lines. I think there's a bit of life, humor and even credibility in the guards' idle chatter and discussions, and I especially love hearing Hammerites (RECEIVE THY POUNDING!), but really, I really disliked hearing the rambling of the mages. Air blows, Fire burns, and blah blah blah... Also, I felt that the Mage Towers was supposed to be a Keeper-themed mission but that they replaced the Keepers by some random mages that have no part in the story. Honestly, I was not convinced at all by this mission. On the plus side, aesthetics are cool and I liked the central building. The fire tower is also cool. In general, it's not that bad of a level, but the negatives really weigh this mission down in my opinion.
9- The Lost City: This is a (high) A tier in my opinion. The first thing I want to say about this mission is that I really laughed out loud when I saw Garrett's map of the mission. In general, I think the map drawings are one of the defining things of the series and I really enjoy them, and I also really enjoy them having a different level of detail or accuracy from a mission to another. I think it adds a great deal to the credibility (and thus, the immersion) of what's happening within the game. I feel that besides that, there is not that much to talk about, I feel the map layout is neither especially good or bad, I'd say it's more on the "good" side without being a masterpiece. I think Fire Elementals are kind of a nice addition, I would not have them in every level but I liked having a bit of them. I remember I had to do a bit of backtracking to find what I had to do next at some points but I enjoyed it more than in the Thieves' Guild mission. I also enjoyed the change of scenery, despite having mages again in the level! Like THC, a solid A tier mission in my opinion.
10- Song Of The Caverns: Lots of love for that mission! I would definitely rank it S tier, although it probably isn't much of a surprise since it seems to be a common ranking among fellow taffers for that mission. I enjoyed meeting Raoul, having a quite diverse cast of enemies, the aesthetics of the opera house, the sound design, and so on. I don't really remember any weak points in that mission.
11- Undercover: I would rate this a B tier mission. It's not a bad mission, but I would not say it is a very good one either. I think it is too easy, but I like the uniqueness of the mission, it is a good one-off : I would not like more of those, but I enjoyed doing it. It is a nice interlude before the more difficult RTC/Escape.
12- Return To The Cathedral: Oh god, I loved this mission so much! Definitely a S tier mission to me. Felt really rewarding considering how scared I was when going after those haunts and apparitions. The tension dropped a bit after they were down, but I enjoyed doing those quests for Brother Murus. It was also quite ironic and enjoyable to see Garrett recite a Hammerite prayer.
13- Escape!: I think it is the mission I find myself having the hardest time to rank so far. It is probably an A tier mission for me, but it is really a mission I could see at the bottom of the S tier section, or the top of the B tier section. I am not really sure where to put it in the A tier section. I liked being introduced to the nature-themed enemies. Some really are a pain in the ass (frogs!), and sometimes I feel myself hating to have to deal with, but in a good way. I found the mission quite difficult and mostly enjoyed getting through it. I think it is quite deserving of an A tier label for the change of scenery and type of enemies. Great atmosphere.
14- Strange Bedfellows: Like some, I think it is the weakest mission in the game. It is not THAT bad (it's better than the worst missions of T2, imo), but it has a lot of enemies, and those enemies are the same than the last mission, so it felt quite a repetition. I think the Hammerite temple is not that good of a map, and it wasn't that bad while doing Undercover because 1/ it was the first time going through it and 2/ it was a short mission, but I felt a lot more wanting to leave this mission ASAP. Plus, the insectoid enemies were not a good match with the scenery. Maybe I'm being too harsh with the mission because it may be not that far of being a good mission, but it was clearly the mission I enjoyed the least in TG. Hence the opening of the C tier section for this mission.
15- Into The Maw Of Chaos: Again, I don't think it is too controversial to put this mission in C tier. Still, I had less issues with it because it was very short (I'm a very slow player and I completed it in 30 minutes in my first and only run, but I knew insects were spawning indefinitely and didn't bother with them in the first part of the mission), but I was still disappointed in this mission. I also felt the Trickster ritual was a bit cringy and wasn't very convincing, I did really not feel immersed at all. Although I realize I was against a god and had no plausible way of dealing with him by myself, I still felt the "oh, I do the old switcheroo and instead of summoning hordes of chaos minions into the world, well, instead you just die from the ritual" plot was weak. That being said, I feel that good plot endings are really hard to do, in every fiction work, so I do not really hold that against the whole game, but still, the last mission felt very underwhelming to me.

So, the final ranking looks like this:

S (masterpiece)
6- The Sword
12- Return To The Cathedral
10- Song Of The Caverns
3- Down In The Bonehoard

A (great mission)
7- The Haunted Cathedral
9- The Lost City
2- Break From Cragscleft Prison
13- Escape!

B (still cool)
5- Thieves' Guild
11- Undercover
8- The Mage Towers
4- Assassins
1- Lord Bafford's Manor

C (meh)
15- Into The Maw Of Chaos
14- Strange Bedfellows

In each tier, they are ordered by how high I rate them. In general I feel good about the tier of each mission, but I might feel different about how I order missions within each tier in the future, especially the A tier in which the missions could be ordered in pretty much any way. I will do the T2 levels next! :)

(update: I deleted this post in the other thread and posted it in this one, since it is more recent and covers both games)