IAmTheWalrus on 12/4/2018 at 08:31

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Really? I don't see how that could be the case besides it being on the same engine, which I honestly think is a part of why people think Deadly Shadows doesn't feel Thief. Because it's on a newer engine. T2X doesn't even feel like it takes place in the same universe to me.

Am interested in reading your list! :D

Iceblade on 12/4/2018 at 15:42

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I definitely was one of those that liked T2 a lot more than T1.... then I got over the undead, and eventually found that T1 is much better with the best levels (a bit small but all great) with fantastic atmosphere oozing everywhere. T2 levels are just too boxy and empty. You just don't feel the emptiness of the streets and rooms in T1*. Texture quality cannot be an issue, since even with higher resolution textures, the aesthetic is the same in T1.

*Okay, so the lack of objects in the mansion rooms does take you out of the moment at times, but then you move onto the next interesting area.

Thief the Dark Project/Gold - 4.5/5 - While not as polished as Thief 2 in terms of mechanics, this game is fantastic from beginning to end with atmosphere and story and level/enemy variety.
1. A Keeper's Training - 3/5 - This training missions combines mystic and lore with a largely in-universe means of training new players. Also, I always wanted to return to this compound in an FM to explore it.
2. Lord Bafford's Manor - 4/5 - For a first mission, this one does everything quite right. Could it be better, yes, does it need to be better to be great.... of course not. This missions keeps it small and simple and normal mode sets a great introductory pace with higher difficulties providing that nice boost of challenges to replay. The introduction of the level sets the world stage well, from the commentary by Garrett in the briefing to the mission's opening conversation. Everything just works. The rooms are sufficiently filled with objects for the most part (good enough to stay immersive). The design and layout is also interesting, presenting a great little home (indoor pool with balconies, lavish bedroom, great little library). The mission also introduces it brand of subtle and optional storytelling with both readables and conversations. Only thing I would like to see is a beefed up version with a bit more decor, perhaps another floor or half-a-floor, and some slightly expanded city-section with some places to visit before going in. It would be really great to hop in through a window into one of the servants (or tough-boys) residences nearby to grab a key to an area inside of Bafford's.
3. Break from Cragscleft Prison - 4/5 - A prison, mine, hammer compound, and two new enemy types. This mission packs in the variety. First, we get an introduction to the undead - starting simple with the easier zombie type. Definitely a scary mission with the atmosphere, sounds, and danger throughout. We also get an introduction to the Order of the Hammer, who are a fascinating group and plenty of fun to deal with. The factory is hard, but the prison really goes into challenge mode. If variety is the spice of life, then you need a glass of water after this hot tamale.
4. Down In the Bonehoard - 3.5/5 - Undead... lots of undead, oh and those dog-like things with bad breath. Definitely not a mission for stealth. While grave-robbing does seem fitting with the Thief trope, you will tend to fill like Rambo after a while. I'm sure the mission is quite ghostable, but you might as well leave the blackjack at home for this one. Is it fun? yes. Is it stealthy? Well, I made so much noise, I woke the dead for their final time. The tombs themselves are fun, and it is fun to explore, but either you play scared and with high tension or you feel like a badass Rambo and clear them out of their holes like it was 'Nam.
5. Assassins - 4.5/5 - The stealthy tailing and interesting cityscape just begging to be explored further, this is one mission that feels right at home in Thief. The stealth difficulty is definitely amped up here. The multiple ways into the Mansion and its many secrets and readables and rooms make for a fun exploration session. Definitely a highlight of replays.
6. Thieves' Guild - 3/5 - This one leaves me kind of meh. The layout is confusing, the map is not very helpful, and the while the large head count keeps the experience tense and busy; I'm left going to finish it as quickly as possible. The sewers are drab with very little of interest to explore and find. This mission could definitely have more interesting readables and conversations, and variations in the objects around the place. Make each thief a little more unique. The way the sewers are designed is also a little too gamey in places and just doesn't seem like even a haphazardly built sewer, which doesn't seem like something that would be built that way. Also, if they were implying that some areas were originally basements, this needed to be more obvious. The manors of the two Lords were good and fun, and the Overlord's Fancy (though a little sparse) fit the bill.
7. The Sword - 4/5 - Chaotic and crazy. The garden/greenhouses are great little architectural areas to explore (meaning I want more, especially like that area above the water barrier. A higher res version of this would segment would be good. The upstairs was really crazy, and could have used some more variation in the craziness and difficulty. Also, I would have wanted more realism in the construction. Presumably, most of the place was man-made, so there should be some separation of vegetation and marble/stone flooring/walls.
8. The Haunted Cathedral - 4.5/5 - This places has so many hints of its past. I found it an absolute joy to explore, just wish we could break into more areas. More rubbish and zombies are definitely needed in the mission (seriously less than 12 zombies, why were we ever scared). Lots of fighting things and blasting undead, lots of movement up and down, and lots of hints to its past leave me very satisfied by this mission. Just give me more environmental details and areas to explore.
9. The Mage Towers - 3/5 - This FM is rather more meh than one would expect. There are some interesting readables and conversations here, though the foreshadowing from the statues is a little lost on veteran players (apart from going oh-yeah that is what happens). The central keep is well textured and decorated and does have some interesting areas, but the towers are just poor. The water tower is too small, and there is nothing interesting about any of the three. The only tower that employs its element well for gameplay is the fire tower (though it does seem a little gamey). The real problem I have with the towers is they don't provide clues into the daily lives of these mages. They don't have the appearance of magical work and living areas, just mazes of platforms, tunnels, and lava. It is not even good at being gimmicky since the elements are not well-played into gameplay-wise. And the water tower is just too short on the inside.
10. The Lost City - 4/5 (3.5 for Thief Gold version) - Strange, mysterious, no undead (which was really nice when I was first playing it). Burricks have never been a particularly fun creature for me to deal with - a chore to kill and noisy to KO. The fire elementals are fun but also nasty to evade, quite numerous (I generally speed-potion to the fire talisman first thing, so twice the number of these enemies), and hard to hit (quick-load crazy). The level is intriguing with lots of clues about the past and interesting navigation challenges. Definitely a fun adventure, but the level definitely was lessened by the removal of the Water Talisman. I feel like this level was the one level had the two talisman protections done well, its removal was just not needed. Cannot say the same for the Earth and Air talismans - that needed to be split.
11. Song of the Caverns - 4.5/5 - Just an amazing level, from the streets to the caverns, to the lavish opera house packed with treasures, lore, secret passages, and marbled halls. Everything works in this mission. It is my favorite of the Thief Gold missions/mission versions with only Assassins giving it a slight edge. Since this is the Thief Gold mission that was never converted to Thief 2, I only got to play it when I bought Thief Gold in 2012 on Steam, so it is also my least replayed OM. One other advantage of this OM was the plethora of great assets that have been well-used in FMs. Only change I might consider making is adding more to the streets and caves (though I can understand the potential pacing issues that would cause).
12. Undercover - 3/5 - An interesting concept brought low but an AI was not yet completed, so the AI does tend to bug out a bit. The exploration of the Hammer life-style and area was fun and interesting. These guys are just far more interesting than the mechanists were. I guess it helps that these guys feel aren't as blind and genocidal as Karras's followers were nor were their areas so sterile (and those mechanist machines, yuck).
13. Return to the Cathedral - 4/5 - Undead slaying at its most intense, and Garrett isn't even well loaded for the job. He has to rely a bunch on what he can find there. Definitely a dark and lengthy mission. I had no issue with Brother Murus' quests and its a fun excuse to go rummaging through all of the areas. The patrol routes of the zombies with some of the destruction certainly made St. Yora's feel larger and more crowded with undead. You almost have to sneak through there when you are low on supplies after clearing out the cathedral section.
14. Escape! - 2.5/5 - Man is this level too bright and packed with beasts. It is hard to sneak through anywhere, so you feel like just slaughtering your way out, except there are so many, this task becomes difficult. Although that fire elemental helps - drop a dead body, rouse the locals to that area, and laugh as the fire elemental burns through some beasts for you.
15. Strange Bedfellows - 3/5 - The underground portion was kind of interesting during earlier playthroughs with those older areas hinting of past. Now it just too little detail and complexity or even challenge. The mission is still an okay level and a bit different from other missions.
16. Into the Maw of Chaos - 2.5/5 - Linear... way too linear. And packed with enemies that you really cannot fight through, you have to stealth by many of them. There are two things that keep this mission from being lower: the elemental areas are very interesting, especially after the first segment; and the Trickster's ritual with great and sometimes funny lines (dotty soil? seriously).
Average rating: TDP: 3.58 / TG: 3.53

Thief II: The Metal Age - 4/5 - This game is much more polished and the engine more capable of handling those large missions. Unfortunately, the levels are just too empty (especially streets) and it is much more noticeable here than in the smaller missions of Thief 1. The levels also seem a little too simple architecturally at times. I think probably the biggest influencing factor is how you are generally only facing humans or those stupid robots (they tend to kill themselves off too easily) and after this many years of facing standard human AIs, it makes the levels rather dull gameplay-wise. The locales in the levels, just aren't as interesting either. Compare the cities in Assassins and Haunted Cathedral with Framed and Ambush (Trace the Courier - same area). These areas are vastly different in style with the former providing a lot of hints to let the imagination go compared to the later.
1. Running Interference - 2.5/5 - I originally found this a fun rump in the early years, now it just a tiny mansion with nothing interesting going on inside of it. Bafford's Manor threw you into the world of Thief, this mission just had you rob some random place and do a less traditional objective.
2. Shipping... and Receiving - 4.5/5 - Now this is what the first mission should have been. Clues of the wider Thief world abound here including recent events in the city. I love the ambient and large and varied areas to explore. Both Warehouses are just fun with enough verticality to make it particularly fun. Only real negative here is the lack of the variety in the objects and ease with which you can wave your sand-bat and send everyone to slumber-land.
3. Framed - 3/5 - The city area is flat and uninteresting. There is just too little to evoke curiosity about the surroundings. The forced ghosting is less frustrating the more experienced I've become, but I still dislike the playstyle and I always feel a bit of dread (because of the less fun aspects of it) going into this mission. The underground areas and secrets were interesting, but the decoration is nice. It is a decent level. Although, it does seem a little too much like a modern 20th century police station with swords, torches, and minimal tech.
4. Ambush! - 3/5 - I liked this mission in the past as it has some fun gameplay and a bit of variety in the areas. Unfortunately, it is overall a little too flat and clean. The areas you can access are simple and poorly decorated (from a worldbuilding perspective) and serve only as passthroughs. The repetitive lack of places to enter and loot really left me bored; and the areas themselves, don't evoke the imagination. In Assassins by comparison, the areas were really chaotic and different. Each door represented an accesspoint into a different place. The area was also fairly small compared to Ambush, so the lack of accessible areas did not get to you.
5. Eavesdropping - 2/5 - Boring, boring, boring, boring. It has always been a boring level. Go in, listen to a conversation (little replay value) then go on a key hunt for a very particular key and make a copy of it (don't forget where you actually found it either). Very few areas have anything interesting about them. The bit about the servant conversion was meh, and probably only has some punch on a first playthrough when you did not know much about the Mechanists yet... no replay value there. The converting of hammer areas was interesting, but this was really only one spot. Definitely low on my interest level.
6. First City Bank and Trust - 3/5 - The mission is tough, but the size is rather excessive for a bank. Some areas are kind of weird and don't make much sense outside of providing variety in areas and gameplay. It is fine in terms of non-linearity and exploration, just the stuff you find is not that interesting.
7. Blackmail - 4/5 - Now this is a mansion level! Large, filled with secrets and interesting details, plenty of loot, and a variety of rooms to explore. The Red Hall was great in terms of surprise and pacing. Just an all around fun level.
8. Trace the Courier - 1.5/5 - And we have our first repeat map. Not only are we going through the same level again, but the purpose of this level is to tail two different individuals. It feels like an attempt to repeat the first part of Assassins, but what made that mission good was the interesting city section and the brevity of that part of the mission. The FM Sammy Pays His Dues replicated the Assassins experience much better.
9. Trail of Blood - 3.5/5 - The walls of forest texture are bleh but understandable given the time period this was created. Though the mission is quite linear, its progression and variety of areas keep it from being a boring train-ride. We get more information on the Pagans than we ever had in Thief 1, and the introduction of Victoria in the cutscene is good. Those Treebeasts are just ouch, still a tough fight one-on-one even today.
10. Life of the Party - 4/5 - This one has fallen a few pegs due to being bested by several T1 and T2 style FMs and the city portion of the map was reused too much for FMs. It just made the level less interesting. The exploration of the city areas is an absolute joy in general, and the mechanist tower is fun to sneak through and clear out. Great exploration and gameplay.
11. Precious Cargo - 4.5/5 - The old pirate areas with the lighthouse is just a fun local to explore. The atmosphere of the mission is also quite different from the usual, and gives the place the feel of small island. The mechanist base is also fun to traverse and explore complete with those old caves and the submarine. Really adds some steampunky tech to mix. The biggest issue with the bad texture work. Wood texture next to metal texture without any breakage is immersion breaking. In a Thief 2 Gold, this underground pirate/mechanist base would need some fixing architecturally to make it more visually believable.
12. Kidnap - 3/5 - Revisiting the lost city was an interesting idea, and I keep finding myself comparing the current areas with the way they were in Thief 1. Unfortunately, some areas are just evacuated earthwork, and the mechanists don't add anything since it is just pocket after pocket of mech machines to chew through. And that bridgework just ruins the look of the place. I think it would be more interesting it was just there were fewer machines, pockets of beasties, and some pockets of where the mechanists have set up shop only. Not tried to civilize the whole place. And most of all, kept most of the place relatively intact and the same. Just open up some pathways between places, cover or negative some of the lava segments. And open a few of the lost portions of the lost city. Also, the main objective here is boring.
13. Casing the Joint - 0.5/5 - And more ghosting, only this time, it is totally pointless. We have gone on so many missions before now being completely blind with little in the way of maps or knowledge of security. Repeat levels are just bad to begin with, and this level is just rather empty during the level and is not actually much better decor-wise in the next mission. And everything is basically complete anyway when we go through this place. At least have some variation and added challenge between this mission and the next.
14. Masks - 2.5/5 - This is an okay mansion, not great. The secrets are boring and meant for traversal unlike the secrets in Assassins and Blackmail. The mission quality in all areas and decor is not much better than it was in the last mission. It just too much of same thing as last time, only easier since you don't have to worry about ghosting. The top floor is fun and much better, but suffers due to an extreme lack of polish.
15. Sabotage at Soulforge - 3/5 - The building of equipment and parts was actually interesting and fun, and certainly felt like a nice idea to use Karras's stuff against him. The areas, however, were just too contrived in design and the repetitive killing of bots has just really turned this into a dull-dull exercise at this point. The place was also just too large given what you are really trying to accomplish in it. The size adds nothing to immersion or gameplay.
Average: 2.97

McTaffer on 12/4/2018 at 18:22

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It's one of my favourites not because of the mission itself, but rather the architecture and atmosphere. It's like being inside a surrealist painting, and I always get a kick out of looking around, even though by now I know pretty well where everything is. I understand why some people don't, though. It's easy to get lost the first couple of times through, and the fact that the mission is probably one of the first examples of what I'd label "tile abuse"- though not as gratuitous as some FMs, it's still there. Sure, the objectives and guard placements are conventional as it gets, but the architecture being the main challenge sets it apart from the others.

Starker on 12/4/2018 at 22:43

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But he does. This is what Garrett actually looks like:


(http://thief.wikia.com/wiki/DromEd/Archetypes/Object_%28-1%29/physical_%28-7%29/Avatar_%28-2098%29*/Garrett_%28-2099%29*) https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/thief/images/e/ee/DromEd_Object_Model_playbox.JPG

Starker on 13/4/2018 at 01:53

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This is an illusion created by the scouting orb. Highly effective.