BEAR on 22/2/2009 at 16:44

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Does anyone see guns as being similar to drugs? I don't know why I never thought of it, but I guess anything you try to prohibit could be similar. If you outlawed them altogether, they would become entirely the realm of criminals, just like drugs (alcohol included). If thats true, the only solution as I see it is responsible policy. Its not about what should or could be, but will be, and people are going to want their guns (just like coke and pot and everything else).

Starrfall on 22/2/2009 at 17:46

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I think you're right and what you said probably shows the cultural difference pretty well - for example I think it's weird that you don't know anyone who owns a gun. There were guns in our house (with trigger locks and in a locked gun locker) all through my childhood. I have relatives in the foothills who don't go too far from home without a gun because there are mountain lions around. I know people who hunt regularly. I know people who keep pistols in the home for protection and who go to shooting ranges once in a while. The fact that they own guns is a non-factor to me because it's normal. And this is the liberal haven of California.

I think probably part of the difference in attitude is that if you grow up where guns are "normal" you learn that while they are very dangerous you can (and always always should) handle them safely and not treat them like toys. But it's mostly not a big deal - if someone has a gun I generally trust them to be safe, just like I generally trust people with cars not to go plowing through crowds of people. If I were to see someone open-carrying, I might wonder why (or might roll my eyes to myself if it looks like they're showing off) but I usually assume they know what they're doing because only a fucking idiot would open carry if he didn't. Obviously there are some people who I think probably shouldn't have guns, but those are usually people who can't own them legally anyways. And obviously anyone who owns guns and doesn't teach their children how to handle them is also a fucking idiot.

Basically while I don't own any guns myself I see absolutely no reason why I shouldn't be allowed to.

Fingernail on 22/2/2009 at 17:52

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it's a miracle that society even functions without guns!


OK seriously seriously

but we're talking about guns that are designed for killing humans. There's no comparison really with any martial art, or boxing, because those things require quite a lot of training to actually result in someone's death, and not everybody can just pick up some boxing gloves (or an equally illegal samurai sword) and do away with someone. It isn't the same. You don't see people going at each other with bow and arrow, or throwing javelins.

You say that the purpose is self defense - do you honestly believe there is LESS harm done thanks to the presence of guns in that society? Everything else just smacks of a sort of "fuck everyone else, I'm safe and I've got my gun" kind of attitude.

Vivian on 22/2/2009 at 18:28

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Awesome, here we go. The main reason you're so very very convinced you need a gun or you're not safe is because you live in a place where its considered normal that lots of people have guns - i.e. its an assumption and probably a correct one that the guys who want to fuck you over will have a gun, so you'd better have one too gorrr hur hurr etc etc.
The idea of people hiding a piece of military fucking killing hardware inside their sock drawer 'just in case' seems actually insane. Flip that over and you'll probably find that criminals will carry guns as a matter of course because every one of their muggees is likely to have a gun stuck up their backside, and then you get a whole bunch of edgy people waving fucking guns about and people are awesomely more likely to get shot. If you can prove thats not whats actually going on I'll concede, but I doubt it to be honest.

Seriously, we've been gun-free for a while over in blighty now, I live in North London which is supposedly pretty shit for that kind of thing, and I've yet to have my house raped inside out by gun-wielding thugs.

Volitions Advocate on 22/2/2009 at 18:43

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I'm from Canada.

There are laws about muzzle length in Canada to combat concealment issues.
All fully automatic guns are prohibited in Canada except by law enforcement and military.
Pistols are considered "restricted" in that if you own one and are not law enforcement or military, that officially makes you an "enthusiast" which means you have no use for it other than taking it to the range, so it must stay in a lock box in transit, and you're not allowed to stop at 7-11 on the way to the range. the only places it goes are from your gun cabinet, to your car in transit to the range, and the range.
In the off chance you are granted a carry permit for a pistol, the magazine you have in the gun itself cannot carry more than 5 rounds. Revolvers excluded.
No semi automatic high-powered rifle can have a magazine capacity of more than 5 (M1 Garand excluded). and High capacity magazines are illegal.
All guns must be locked in a safe or cabinet when not in use, and must not be visible. And all ammunition must be locked up separately. (supposedly to give you a moment to cool down while looking for your keys before doing something emotional with your firearm like suicide)
Nobody can own a gun of any kind without first getting an FAC from the government. Which requires an 8 hour class and a passing grade on the test.
Must be renewed every 5 years, or you dont get any more guns.
All guns must be registered with the government.

The 5 round magazine rule came in after the Subway massacre in montreal, you can't shoot 20 people so easily before somebody doing something about it if you have to reload after 5 shots.
Problem: The guy who did it had no idea how to use his gun properly and could only fire his rifle one shot at a time.

Pistols are restricted because nobody uses rifles to commit crimes because they're bulky and can't be concealed.
Problem: Mayorthorpe Alberta... a man on a farm murders 4 RCMP officers with a hunting rifle. (this one is really close to home)

Most people in this country own a gun because it is a tool. I have 3 myself and I use them for hunting in the winter, because I'd rather eat a healthy moose or elk, than a sick fat cow that grew up in a feedlot, and spend less money doing it. I fire maybe 4 shots a year, unless i go to the range to zero in my rifle.

The government said the gun registry instituted during Jean Chretien's time in office would cost the taxpayers $1million. However a decade later, its inefficient, not everybody registered their guns, its not enforceable except by chance, and it has cost the taxpayers over $2 billion.

Whats the solution? I have no idea. But i'd love to hear one that works.
What's the effect? Wasted money, and people keep killing police officers with whatever gun they get their hands on.