Race vs. Gender (a USA political thread) - by ChickenMcOwnage
a flower in hell on 17/2/2008 at 20:04
Quote Posted by LesserFollies
It just seems to me that having a gun in the house makes it more likely that you'll accidentally use it on an innocent person, your kids will get into it, or it will be taken away from you and used against you by the intruder than your scaring off a criminal with it. Having a gun in the house would scare me shitless. Everytime I turn around I hear about some poor kid who blew his younger brother's face off, despite training, warnings, and the parents having the thing locked up. I very rarely hear about crimes thwarted by homeowner guns.
I think it's a mistake. As for "who am I to tell people," I'm not TELLING anyone. I'm allowed to have an opinion.
You are right. You are allowed to have an opinion, except when your opinion is forced upon others, and if your opinion was law, then it would be forced upon others.
I don't understand why people find guns so scary. The modern world has millions upon millions of ways for you to meet your untimely demise. Firearms are among the least frightening in my opinion.
I'd rather get shot to death than cut up with a knife any day. It'd be a hell of a lot less painful and I might even get to have an open casket funeral.
Chimpy Chompy on 17/2/2008 at 20:10
Quote Posted by AR Master
I think it's more the fact that the government has no right to tell you you can't own a certain type of tool
The government tells you all kinds of things. Jay said it already (or was it in another thread?), restriction of freedoms is pretty much integral to civillisation. That doesn't mean we just blindly cheer on banning stuff, but it does mean gun ownership isn't untouchable on some MY FREEDOMS ticket.
As for cars, fuck, I'd be all for heavily restricting those too if our society wasn't so horribly dependent on them.
a flower in hell on 17/2/2008 at 20:17
Restriction of freedom is only integral to civilization now. Give us a couple million years to evolve some more and that might change. =p
Ghostly Apparition on 17/2/2008 at 20:24
you can say what you want, but obama is the most inspiring leader I've seen in my lifetime. I never thought I would live to see another one after JFK.
D'Juhn Keep on 17/2/2008 at 21:03
Quote Posted by Starrfall
Not really a strawman. A strawman would be more like if he said "oh so you think we should just leave ourselves defenseless and at the mercy of the criminals why don't you just give them your things right now it'd be faster don't come crying to me when your family is raped, murdered, and stolen because you couldn't protect them" or something.
"I enjoy guns and want this hobby to be legal" is a perfectly reasonable thing to say.
Well at best it's putting words into anti-gun mouths as even in Britain we have hunting and competitive shooting.
I don't believe that regulation would stop her from persuing her hobby and therefore she's answering an argument (indeed claiming a trump card against gun laws) that doesn't exist ?
Obviously you'll know debating terms better than I do but I think we're disagreeing on if her hobby would be outlawed or not. Which I can't see happening at all
Also I just watched that "Just words response" video too and goddamn he's great :cool:
DarkThiefsie on 17/2/2008 at 21:04
Like seriously? This is not like a knife or a golf club - the other guy has a chance to fight back. With a gun, what's stopping you from killing people?
Even if you own a gun for, say, the purpose of keeping yourself safe or sport, what happens when you break down and lose your mind? What about if someone broke in and stole your gun? What if your son or daughter found your gun?
I don't think a piece of paper that says, "YOU ARE LICENSED" will change much in the situation, ay? It's a gun! It's very purpose is to kill or shoot stuff!
OK, OK - you may never lose your mind, and you may actually keep your gun in a safe beneath the earth locked away from your son(s)/daughter(s). But some people are not so responsible. And there is always the chance of an accident.
mopgoblin on 17/2/2008 at 21:38
Quote Posted by DarkThiefsie
Like seriously? This is not like a knife or a golf club - the other guy has a chance to fight back.
At close range, a knife is at least as dangerous as a handgun, and more dangerous than a rifle. If the person with the knife has any significant skill, or if they take you by surprise, then you don't have much chance to fight back.
Quote:
Even if you own a gun for, say, the purpose of keeping yourself safe or sport, what happens when you break down and lose your mind? What about if someone broke in and stole your gun? What if your son or daughter found your gun?
If you've stored a firearm properly, then the risk of it being stolen or discovered by a child is minimal. You store it in an appropriately secure container, not loaded, and separate from any ammunition. If possible, you also remove an essential piece of the firing mechanism and hide that separately. That's three things that have to be found, one of which is small enough that finding it should require an extremely thorough search.
LesserFollies on 17/2/2008 at 21:51
Quote Posted by mopgoblin
If you've stored a firearm properly, then the risk of it being stolen or discovered by a child is minimal. You store it in an appropriately secure container, not loaded, and separate from any ammunition. If possible, you also remove an essential piece of the firing mechanism and hide that separately. That's three things that have to be found, one of which is small enough that finding it should require an extremely thorough search.
The problem is, it
keeps on happening. And whenever it does, the parents are always quoted as being stunned, because "it was inaccessible!' and "my kids have been taught since birth to handle guns properly!" Kids are KIDS. It's not worth the risk.
DarkThiefsie on 17/2/2008 at 21:56
OMopGoblin:
You are one of the responsible ones, then :)
I'm more worried about the ones who leave firearms around - you know, like irrespnsible parents and the such.
Another thing I notice is that most people tend to refer to gun control laws as a solution - i think it only treats the symptons rather than the underlying cause. You can ban guns, but you probably will be in a similar situation in the future except you'll have explosives or knives or something worse.
As can be seen, i'm not totally against guns or totally with gun control. But I realise that without guns, it could have been far worse at the recent shootings (what if the guy decided to use explosives, for example? It was a lecture room crowded with people! - OR knives?)
a flower in hell on 17/2/2008 at 22:11
Jeez, I've said this several times now, I guess I wasn't clear enough. Regulation doesn't bother me. I'm not arguing against regulation. I'm arguing against an outright ban.
I think most of the gun laws are okay as they are. Some of them are stupid, banning purely cosmetic features, like guns that resemble military weapons. I'm against stupid laws for stupid reasons--no pistol grips because they "make it easier to shoot from the hip?" What the hell? Shooting "from the hip" is stupid. You can't get a sight picture and you have less control over recoil when the stock's not against your shoulder. Lawmakers have been watching too many bad 80s action movies.
I don't agree with magazine limits either, though I'd never carry a double stack automatic myself because my hands are too small (except maybe a Glock).
I've got no problem with the current status of DDs, full-autos, calibers larger than .5-inch, etc. That's fine; the stuff's so regulated, taxed and downright expensive that nothing bad will ever come of it. I don't see anyone using a $20,000 machinegun to commit a crime, especially considering how well the ATF keeps tabs on Class 3 stuff.
I'm not one of the "Evil Black Rifle" crowd myself (I prefer wood and laminates, so much prettier), but I can get behind them, especially for some shooting sports, synthetics are just better. Short-barreled shotguns, meh, not useful for anything really. "Sawed-off" is largely a movie thing and since the military primarily uses shotguns for blowing locks off doors, it's a different ballgame, and I doubt I'll ever need to blow a lock off a door.
Regulation is fine, background checks are fine (as long as they stay instant!) and limiting the distribution of Class 3 is also fine. Banning guns because they "look mean" makes as much sense as saying you can no longer drive a riced-out sports car on public roads.
