Vojtechsonik on 14/7/2013 at 16:12
Fine, looking forward to answers then :angel:
Darkness_Falls on 14/7/2013 at 17:12
Actually, sorry, Starker's probably right (in terms of b1skit answering questions here). Just re-read b1skit's last paragraph:
Quote:
To keep things simple and make my job easier, these (on the EM forums) are the only places I'll be accepting questions but I sincerely hope you guys will contribute.
Esme on 14/7/2013 at 18:07
Well sorry B1skit, it took me a year to get my account closed so I guess we won't be talking then
Renault on 15/7/2013 at 04:22
Well, B1skit doesn't appear to be answering many questions on the EM forums either - he's only posted 15 times since E3, which was over a month ago. :tsktsk:
Honest inquiry here - if he's not answering questions on the two biggest Thief message boards on the net, then what exactly does a "Community Manager" do all day?
Edit: So, I decided to do a few searches to see how dedicated these other "community representatives" are over at EM. The results might surprise you:
Quote:
Total posts on the Eidos Thief board:
Master Taffer - 1838
Jerion - 230
Spyhopping - 104
Ashpolt - 43
Acid Burn - 6
Total posts on the Eidos Thief board from a year ago and older:
Master Taffer - 716
Jerion - 55
Spyhopping - 6
Acid Burn - 1
Ashpolt - 0
Total posts on the Eidos Thief board prior to E3:
Master Taffer - 1677
Jerion - 181
Spyhopping - 56
Acid Burn - 3
Ashpolt - 1
Total posts on the Eidos Thief board since E3:
Master Taffer - 161
Jerion - 49
Spyhopping - 48
Ashpolt - 42
Acid Burn - 3
Total Posts on all Eidos boards:
Jerion - 6313
Ashpolt - 4580
Master Taffer - 1959
Spyhopping - 1941
Acid Burn - 666
So in short, what EM did was take a bunch of people who've posted a lot on all of the other Eidos boards, everywhere except the Thief board, and send them to E3 to play Thief and give everyone their opinion. The only exception is Master Taffer.
There's no way you can argue any of the other 4 are anything but extremely casual Thief fans. They have thousands of posts on all the other areas of the Eidos boards, but had barely touched the Thief board prior to E3. Sure, they'll likely tell you they've played all the Thief games before, and they're big fans. But the truth is that they're diehard fans of Eidos' other games, and they probably have barely played Thief at all. How else can you explain their lack of presence on EM's version of ThiefGen?
Think of all the available diehard fans that could have gone and given an honest opinion on the new game. But I'm sure Eidos was scared to death of honest opinions. Hell, these guys (the ones that went) probably didn't even know what to look for or ask about! They certainly aren't representative of any Thief community. And you can bet your bottom dollar that these "community reps" are all bought and paid for and are on board the Eidos PR tour. Pathetic.
legoman on 15/7/2013 at 09:28
Quote Posted by Brethren
Well, B1skit doesn't appear to be answering many questions on the EM forums either - he's only posted 15 times since E3, which was over a month ago. :tsktsk:
Honest inquiry here - if he's not answering questions on the two biggest Thief message boards on the net, then what exactly does a "Community Manager" do all day?
Edit: So, I decided to do a few searches to see how dedicated these other "community representatives" are over at EM. The results might surprise you:
So in short, what EM did was take a bunch of people who've posted a lot on all of the other Eidos boards, everywhere except the Thief board, and send them to E3 to play Thief and give everyone their opinion. The only exception is Master Taffer.
There's no way you can argue any of the other 4 are anything but extremely casual Thief fans. They have thousands of posts on all the other areas of the Eidos boards, but had barely touched the Thief board prior to E3. Sure, they'll likely tell you they've played all the Thief games before, and they're big fans. But the truth is that they're diehard fans of Eidos' other games, and they probably have barely played Thief at all. How else can you explain their lack of presence on EM's version of ThiefGen?
Think of all the available diehard fans that could have gone and given an honest opinion on the new game. But I'm sure Eidos was scared to death of honest opinions. Hell, these guys (the ones that went) probably didn't even know what to look for or ask about! They certainly aren't representative of any Thief community. And you can bet your bottom dollar that these "community reps" are all bought and paid for and are on board the Eidos PR tour. Pathetic.
Unfortunately, whilst they are not representative of the thief community, they are representative of EM's target audience, which is for the most part made up of people who are loosely familiar with thief at best. I don't think it is fair to demonise EM for choosing this group, they still need to make a profit, and the thief community by itself is too small to carry the sales by themselves. That is not to say EM wouldn't make a profit by tailoring the game to the hardcore thief fans, I think they probably would. But it they are getting good feedback from on what they have produced so far (and they are if we go by the responses of those who have played the demo), what motivation have they to change?
Dia on 15/7/2013 at 13:45
Right there; 'I don't think it is fair to demonise EM for choosing this group, they still need to make a profit, and the thief community by itself is too small to carry the sales by themselves.', that pretty much confirms what Brethren is saying. That EM didn't want hardcore Thief fans playing the demo because they already knew it was noticeably lacking - they chose people they knew who would suckup and give the positive reviews they were after. And why in God's name would I want to 'go by the responses of those who have played the demo' if, as Brethren pointed out, they aren't hardcore Thief fans; fans who would know what to look for and/or ask about? That would be like asking a Thief fan who's only played 20 minutes of CoD (ever in their life) to give an in-depth review of a 30 minute demo for a new CoD game. Honestly, legoman? Don't look now, but your EM affiliation is showing. And we've had enough EM PR from EM members in our T4 forums to last a lifetime, btw.
I would've been more inclined to believe reviews of the T4 demo had they been written by people who ARE die-hard Thief fans and who have absolutely NO affiliation with EM whatsoever. Any reviews I've read by those who are considered part of EM's 'community' are automatically subject to suspicion imo because, as a good friend pointed out, 90% of producing a new video game is hype - and who better to hype your product than members of your own community? No matter how you try to justify it legoman, EM chose members of the EM community for a reason, and it wasn't because 'the thief community by itself is too small to carry the sales by themselves'; it was because EM wanted positive reviews, given all the trouble they've had just getting a demo ready for view, period, and what better way to insure positive reviews than to have your own employees and community members themselves provide those reviews? Target audience; fine. We already know EM is making a game aimed at the mass gamer audience out there - just stop implying that we (die-hard Thief fans) are all gonna LOVE this game because the demo got such wonderful reviews. Please.
The 'good feedback' you claim EM is getting over their T4 demo sounds like nothing more than EM patting itself on the back (I mean come on! EM community members - non-hardcore Thief fans at that - reviewing an EM game demo? How much more biased could you get?). If EM really wanted more credible reviews, they should've invited several Taffers from TTLG to play the demo. Oh wait .... that's right .... we're not the Target Audience. Silly me, I nearly forgot that fact.
And yes, Brethren; you & Chade would've been the first two I would've nominated, among others here. Now those reviews would've been worth reading! ;)
Chade on 15/7/2013 at 14:06
Quote Posted by Brethren
Think of all the available diehard fans that could have gone and given an honest opinion on the new game. But I'm sure Eidos was scared to death of honest opinions. Hell, these guys (the ones that went) probably didn't even know what to look for or ask about! They certainly aren't representative of any Thief community. And you can bet your bottom dollar that these "community reps" are all bought and paid for and are on board the Eidos PR tour. Pathetic.
I think you're making this way too complicated. here's b1skit's post on the matter:
Quote Posted by b1skit
These guys have a history and have been around for years. I needed to be 100% certain that their experience would benefit the rest of the Thief/Deus Ex community when they returned, and these guys were selected because I was absolutely confident that they knew their stuff and would be dedicated and articulate enough to clearly share what they had seen.
There is no elaborate conspiracy here. People work hard, good things happen - it's just how I think it should be.
Translation: I've worked with these guys for years, I know them, I respect them, they're dedicated, pretty safe, and I'd like to reward them. I'll pick them.
Now, I tend to agree this was a mistake, at least for PR here at TTLG. I would have preferred to see more super hardcore thief fans, and some from this board too. But I don't see any reason to believe there are hidden motives here. B1skit's statement seems plausible (it's normal human behaviour at any rate), and are entirely sufficient to explain what occured.
BTW, the EM players did also meet the DX team iirc. I have no idea what for.
legoman on 15/7/2013 at 14:40
Quote Posted by Dia
Right there;
'I don't think it is fair to demonise EM for choosing this group, they still need to make a profit, and the thief community by itself is too small to carry the sales by themselves.', that pretty much confirms what Brethren is saying. That EM didn't
want hardcore Thief fans playing the demo because they already knew it was noticeably lacking - they chose people they knew who would suckup and give the positive reviews they were after. And why in God's name would I
want to
'go by the responses of those who have played the demo' if, as Brethren pointed out, they
aren't hardcore Thief fans; fans who would
know what to look for and/or ask about? That would be like asking a Thief fan who's only played 20 minutes of CoD (ever in their life) to give an in-depth review of a 30 minute demo for a new CoD game. Honestly, legoman? Don't look now, but your EM affiliation is showing. And we've had enough EM PR from EM members in our T4 forums to last a lifetime, btw.
I would've been more inclined to believe reviews of the T4 demo had they been written by people who ARE die-hard Thief fans and who have absolutely NO affiliation with EM whatsoever. Any reviews I've read by those who are considered part of EM's 'community' are automatically subject to suspicion imo because, as a good friend pointed out, 90% of producing a new video game is hype - and who better to hype your product than members of your own community? No matter how you try to justify it legoman, EM chose members of the EM community for a reason, and it wasn't because
'the thief community by itself is too small to carry the sales by themselves'; it was because EM wanted positive reviews, given all the trouble they've had just getting a demo ready for view, period, and what better way to insure positive reviews than to have your own employees and community members themselves provide those reviews? Target audience; fine. We
already know EM is making a game aimed at the mass gamer audience out there - just stop implying that we (die-hard Thief fans) are all gonna LOVE this game because the demo got such wonderful reviews. Please.
The 'good feedback' you claim EM is getting over their T4 demo sounds like nothing more than EM patting itself on the back (I mean
come on! EM community members - non-hardcore Thief fans at that - reviewing an EM game demo? How much more biased could you get?). If EM
really wanted more credible reviews, they should've invited several Taffers from TTLG to play the demo. Oh wait .... that's right ....
we're not the Target Audience. Silly me, I nearly forgot that fact.
And yes, Brethren; you & Chade would've been the first two I would've nominated, among others here. Now
those reviews would've been worth reading! ;)
At what point did I imply your going to love the game? I know I probably wont. Also, please stop with the accusations of EM affiliation; however if you find my non-existent account on the EM boards or the correspondences and pay pal transfers, feel free to continue :)
Whether the positive feedback is accurate or not isn't the point. My point is that is doesn't make sense from EM's perspective to just choose hardcore thief fans to playtest the game. For EM to be confident the game is going to sell they need to know the general masses are going to like it as well, not just TTLGers, hence they chose a more representative sample of the audience.
I refute that hardcore TTLG taffers are going to give credible reviews, of course for other members of this community they will be. But for the general public? Absolutely not because any reviewer from TTLG is going to weigh thief 4 against the previous titles, which is almost surely going to colour the review in a negative light because thief 4 is a reinvention, not a replication. EM knows this and arn't going to risk creating that negative response.
Does all this make EM the big bad? Everyone is entitled to their own opinion but I don't think the underlying desire for the game to be successful (as measured by number of sales) is inherently wrong. If it was we should probably boycott all games made for profit, roll on the Dark Mod!
Renault on 15/7/2013 at 14:56
Quote Posted by Chade
Translation: I've worked with these guys for years, I know them, I respect them, they're dedicated, pretty safe, and I'd like to reward them. I'll pick them.
I don't think that's quite right, B1skit is new, he was just hired last fall I believe, so he doesn't have a lot of history with any of these people. I agree he went with the safe option, so EM would receive the last amount of negative response from the demo:
1) Moderators who want to keep their status within the community and a good standing with EM.
2) People with a large post count so they're recognized by most users at the Eidos forums, giving the appearance of legitimacy.
3) Non-Thief fans, so they won't over analyze every little detail of the demo and compare it to the original games.
The only thing he didn't think of is that this group would have near zero credibility with the Thief community. I mean come on, Master Taffer aside, these are not Thief fans. I would bet more than half of them played through the games for the first time in preparation for E3.
