Chade on 16/8/2013 at 11:37
In situations like this, were you're quoting someone to insult them, and it's on another forum and we don't have any of the context, I think it's worthwhile to quote the whole post:
Quote Posted by b1skit
LOL! Everybody needs to calm down and relax.
This is such a non-issue. You can absolutely jump and move through the world fluidly and freely. The game has been designed specifically to achieve this goal. You're looking at this like you're losing a feature, but the reality is that you're gaining dozens more.
Anybody claiming the game will somehow be ruined because you can't free jump, when there is no reason to be jumping, would have to agree that Gran Tourismo is ruined because you can't choose to pop the trunk - right? No, of course not.
Saying that immersion is broken because of the absence of a feature allowing you to physically break out of character is akin to dividing by zero. Garrett would never randomly hop, skip and jump through the world. He just wouldn't. Honestly, if you need to spam the jump button continually for no reason to truly feel immersed a game, or need to be able to randomly pop yourself into the air like a grasshopper with the hiccups - then hell, maybe Thief isn't for you. But, check out Team Fortress 2 - it's free to play and you'll probably love it!
As someone who has played the game more than anybody else outside of the dev team, I can assure you that free jumping would ruin immersion. Pogo hopping through the world like a shop manequin on a spring would seem incredibly out of place, dated and overly simplistic within the context of the rest of the rich and tactile mechanics that have been created soley to make you feel like a Master Thief slipping through the world.
Like I said yesterday, this is not tomb raider, this is not The Last of Us, this is not an early 2000's game with cheesy pre-programmed hot spots. Forget what you know about the word "contextual" - it's been turned into a dirty word of late, but don't make the mistake of judging Thief on how "contextual" actions have been handled in other, completely unrelated games.
Consider that this only has become an 'issue' on the forums here after someone quoted a snippet of a text interview. It was never brought up when you guys first saw the E3 gameplay footage. Nor was it ever brought up as an issue by any of the journalists who played the game - including the few more 'critical' reports. MT didn't even scream bloody murder or beg the team to change the feature after he played the game. Why? For 1 very simple reason: It's just not an issue. Nobody felt restricted. Nobody felt they were missing anything. Chances are when you're finally playing the game, neither will you!
You can't free jump just for no reason - but you can jump whenever and wherever you need to jump. It's fluid. It's slick. You tap the jump button in the EXACT same way, with the exact same timing as if you had a free jump. In fact, if you weren't told that you couldn't free jump, and only tried to jump when you needed to jump to, you would have NO idea that you couldn't bunny hop around like convulsing jack-in-the-box. It's only when you tap the jump button while standing in the middle of a room with nothing to jump on that you DON'T jump.
So, I hear you asking, what happens when you DO press the jump button, but there is nothing to jump on?
You SWOOP!
It's AWESOME - just like a very small dash. In fact, if Garrett didn't hunker down to avoid being seen, you would say that it feels like a jump, in a way (be clear: It is NOT a jump). The swoop is used to empower stealth gameplay, and can be used in any direction - forwards, backwards, side to side. You can even rotate/change direction while you're swooping. It cannot be spammed for a continual speed boost. It offers total freedom and mobility, completely aligned with the movement and grace of a master thief who makes his living by sneaking from shadow to shadow. Those hoping for Garrett the Master River Dancer will be disappointed, everyone else has nothing to worry about.
Coincidently, we actually touch on the swoop in a Thief podcast that will be coming out on the last Friday of this month (also news: We'll be releasing Thief podcasts on the last Friday of every month starting this month!)
So yeah, his entire post does seem to completely ignore the argument that most people are making against contextual jumping, which is that it's not up to the devs to predict all the situations and reasons that might make a person want to jump.
On the other hand, and I know I've already said this in an earlier argument, but I think the point about the lack of outcry about this at E3 is a good one. I don't understand how you could possibly play the game and not complain about contextual jumping, but so far the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that this is what this is what happens. All complaints thus far have been speculation by people who haven't played the game. All currently available evidence points the other way.
I would also add that his comments about the word "contextual" are interesting, and I wouldn't be surprised if the game is calculating possible jump spots programmatically. (Not just because of his comments ... I wondered about it earlier, because it's the only way I can imagine getting good enough coverage to avoid getting any complaints at E3.) Or maybe they've just got really good testers ...
nickie on 16/8/2013 at 12:03
Insults, for any reason, are unwelcome here.
SubJeff on 16/8/2013 at 12:25
Quote Posted by Chade
I think the point about the lack of outcry about this at E3 is a good one. I don't understand how you could possibly play the game and not complain about contextual jumping, but so far the evidence overwhelmingly suggests that this is what this is what happens. All complaints thus far have been speculation by people who haven't played the game. All currently available evidence points the other way.
They only played it for a limited amount of time, and the aim was to show off stuff not to highlight things that are lacking. ffs. Think about it.
Chade on 16/8/2013 at 12:35
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
They only played it for a limited amount of time, and the aim was to show off stuff not to highlight things that are lacking.
They had a section showcasing lots of climbing around on things. I don't think that argument is valid. In fact, I think the opposite is true. Rewatch the E3 video and reread E3 articles such as the RPS one. It was the perfect environment to notice the lack of jumping.
The limited amount of time argument is valid up to a point ... that point being where you start claiming that this is something that is going to completley screw up the game all by itself, which many people are saying. If people don't notice it in half an hour, in articles where plenty of other possible issues with the core gameplay are brought up, it's not going to completely kill the core gameplay all by itself.
I've been over this with Starker and some other guys before.
Springheel on 16/8/2013 at 13:58
Quote:
Saying that immersion is broken because of the absence of a feature allowing you to physically break out of character is akin to dividing by zero. Garrett would never randomly hop, skip and jump through the world. He just wouldn't. Honestly, if you need to spam the jump button continually for no reason to truly feel immersed a game, or need to be able to randomly pop yourself into the air like a grasshopper with the hiccups - then hell, maybe Thief isn't for you. But, check out Team Fortress 2 - it's free to play and you'll probably love it!
I can't believe anyone could, in good faith, create such an obvious strawman. :tsktsk:
Who has EVER complained that Garrett can't "
randomly hop, skip and jump"? Who has EVER complained that you can't "spam the jump button continually
for no reason"??
Wow, what a load of utter, dismissive bullshit.
Quote:
It was never brought up when you guys first saw the E3 gameplay footage.
How many jumps in that footage? I don't remember any. There would also be no way to tell you can't lean anywhere you want from watching gameplay videos. I'm pretty damn sure if the "prompt appear[ed] telling me I can jump across" had been shown, however, there would have been a response.
Quote:
It's just not an issue. Nobody felt restricted. Nobody felt they were missing anything.
Absolutely false. Read the "we played Thief at E3" thread over again; at least one mod specifically mentioned it as something they didn't like and hoped would change.
edit: It was Jerion: " I hope this will change and jumping will become free-form, unrestrained by pre-determined leaping points."
I'm completely disappointed by the ridiculous straw-manning (to the point of mockery) in that post, let alone the blatant falsehoods. Well played, EM. :rolleyes:
Queue on 16/8/2013 at 14:16
Quote:
As someone who has played the game more than anybody else outside of the dev team, I can assure you that free jumping would ruin immersion. Pogo hopping through the world like a shop manequin on a spring would seem incredibly out of place, dated and overly simplistic within the context of the rest of the rich and tactile mechanics that have been created soley to make you feel like a Master Thief slipping through the world.
That sounds so sumptuously romantic, I'm literally swooning. Rich and tactile mechanics that were created
solely (or "soley", what is acceptable, now) to make
me feel like a master Thief... as I glide through the world like a gilded God, loot flinging itself dutifully into my pockets at the beckoning of my Maestro-like fingers, for I AM A MASTER THIEF!
... who relies heavily on rope points and jump points to get around, but at least I have wicked, WICKED moves when needed.
... and I don't really have to do much, exploration-wise, except follow the planned course of action, because otherwise I wouldn't be a Master Thief and immersion would be ruined.
You know what would be even better, place flashing Xs on a map showing the location of every single bit of loot, so I wouldn't have to break my immersion in the game by having to explore so f***ing much.
Esme on 16/8/2013 at 14:45
So very basically he's saying I won't even notice the inability to jump because the developers have planned my every action down to the pixel and there is no situation where I need to jump without something to jump across, as in EM's opinion this will break my immersion by what they disparagingly describe as "bunny hopping", but which I regard as a valuable technique I've employed to pull guard out of position on several occasions.
I don't know about anyone else but stealth for me is not the absence of sound and visual cues, stealth is the control of sound and visual cues, I decide how much noise to make, I decide if I wish to be seen or not, there are occasions I wish to make noise or be seen, I regard this as part of my toolkit.
However these have been designed out of the new game because of the aforementioned breaking of immersion.
I won't have to think because the contextual buttons will automatically switch actions as required and take me from one beautifully visualised part of the story that the developers want me to look at and deliver me safe and sound to the next scene of the story the developers want me to go oooo at.
In short apart from some very limited situations, such as choosing which limb to break on a guard, picking which of the pre planned routes the Developers have laid out, deciding which attachment point I wish to burn my rope arrow on or something equally trivial, I have no control whatsoever and am steered through the game as if I am on rails.
The story is presented in sequence and there is no way to break out of the story, I can't go off exploring, I can't go anywhere the developers haven't thought of first, I can't use my imagination and come up with innovative ways of doing things because all is sacrificed to the narrative and if the developers don't think I should be doing something at a particular point of the story then there is no way to do it.
They might as well have made a movie and dispensed with the controls, I'd probably watch such a movie, I know I'd enjoy it a lot more.
Quote:
you would have NO idea that you couldn't bunny hop around like convulsing jack-in-the-box
If I wish to "bunny hop round the level like a convulsing jack-in-the-box" then that's my choice, I realise I wouldn't last very long doing this but it's still my choice, if I wish to throw myself in the river and drown that's my choice, if I wish to leap off a very tall building to see if I can fly that's my choice, if I wish to climb over a wall to see what's on the other side and accidentally fall out of the game universe then that's my choice.
Saying these things won't be missed, that they don't make sense or poking fun at those who want them by making disparaging comments about bunny hopping like a "convulsing jack-in-the-box" is not the point, you have taken the choice and the control away from the player.
No matter how many options and playstyles you put in the player follows your script the way you want it followed which is not playing a game in my book.
Play where everything is controlled and proscribed is not play, it may be an experience, it may be visually stunning, but basically it is a linear story told a step at a time and has more in common with a film or a book than a game.
nickie on 16/8/2013 at 14:58
Very well said, Esme - that perfectly describes my feelings on the subject.
Asquith on 16/8/2013 at 15:10
Obviously jumping whenever you want means bunny-hopping through the entire level.
Since it's a stealth-game, it's OBVIOUSLY impossible to utilize other ways to discourage people from bunny-hopping.
-- Imagine had they instead introduced a stamina meter that could be depleted by jumping.
-- Or even such utter tripe as making too much noise when jumping around!
Really, I'm glad they restrict jumping to when they think it's necessary, that is clearly the better solution! :joke:
