jtbalogh on 31/7/2013 at 07:08
A harsh reaction is expected if all the demo can show is,
EM: "headshot: here's some xp"
Player: "whoah! xp rewards killing!".
Thwart it with the same player in the alternate universe and imagine,
EM: "headshot: here's some xp but you could have had more if left alone, duh"
Player: "whoah! xp rewards stealth! EM really does want a stealth game after all"
EM has been inclined to introduce XP somehow and demonstrate the accumulation in the mission statistics, so at a minimum provide a frame of reference in that popup of instant gratification. Newbie players will appreciate the knowledge to help make their next move matter more. Experienced players will appreciate feeding our ego with balanced information and not just killing.
SubJeff on 31/7/2013 at 07:31
At this point there is no way of knowing how well realised the world will be.
Specter on 31/7/2013 at 14:19
And isnt it strange that they have told us so little about the world? I would have thought they might try to use the world they created as a means to lessen the disappointments with other aspects. There are so many things people are unhappy about, and they don't seem interested in revealing other crucial elements of their product that may be actually well received. To me, and this will sound more cynical than I mean it, if they truly had this wonderful world, rich in content and story, you'd think they would be quick to show it off.
TTK12G3 on 31/7/2013 at 14:30
Quote Posted by Chade
.... details that can't be communicated without playing the game.....how do you say "this works well in practice".... get a chance to play it?
You just answered your own question. I guarantee that there will not be anything close to a demo because "that won't communicate the proper experience", but you can rest assured that there will be overpriced pre-order "bonuses". They are planning to release this game in a year and a half. They definitely should have more than enough to show at this time.
Quote Posted by Chade
And yeah, I only bring up DX:HR as one of many points. I would be a shame if the entire conversation started revolving around that.
Want to talk about Bioshock instead? That would probably be far more relevant with regards of how this is probably going to end, if we were to assume the BEST case.
b1skit on 31/7/2013 at 19:21
Quote Posted by Chade
There are lots of sources that suggest that action* will be more forgiving then it was before. But action being just as rewarding or more rewarding then stealth? IIRC, that's seriously stretching. I can't recall any sources that support you.
Yes, you're correct Chade. Thanks for asking for a source, btw ;)
Firstly, there is a big difference between someone who 'always' chooses combat and someone who plays stealthily yet aggressively. For example, you can be completely undetected yet still be considered to have an aggressive play style - Playing cat'n'mouse with the enemy AI and picking your opportunities to take the guards down one-by-one is very aggressive, but theoretically you should never have to confront your enemies head on or enter into combat at all.
So while Thief does NOT encourage combat, the game does support and empower a much richer spectrum of varying play styles than seen before in the Thief franchise - players who enjoy combat or who wish to play aggressively from the shadows are just a small part of the pie in the larger overall game balancing decisions. Garrett's best bet is always to avoid combat and flee - players will quickly recognize this as their best choice, but those who choose to stand their ground and fight will have the tools to help defend themselves instead of always being mercilessly cut down for a simple mistake. Respectively, stealth has also been empowered by the addition of Garrett's swoop and focus abilities as well. (And again, focus is optional and can be completely disabled if you so desire...)
All players are rewarded throughout the game for successfully achieving their objectives - no play style is ever punished, obviously, it's up to the player to decide how they would like to play the game. However, stealth is always the preferred and more highly rewarded strategy, encouraged and balanced by the game design: The layout of each level/environment, specific mission objectives (ie. "Don't be seen", "Don't kill anybody" etc), Garrett's morals and the overarching narrative, the xp system, achievements etc etc etc.
While players will have many more play style options than previously seen before in the Thief franchise, you'll quickly see that it's *much* more effective and rewarding to play stealthily and rely on your cunning/wits to outsmart the AI, making opportunities for yourself. Full on frontal assaults are definitely not the way to go :D
Renault on 31/7/2013 at 20:19
Quote Posted by b1skit
However, stealth is always the preferred and more highly rewarded strategy, encouraged and balanced by the game design: The layout of each level/environment, specific mission objectives (ie. "Don't be seen", "Don't kill anybody" etc), Garrett's morals and the overarching narrative, the xp system, achievements etc etc etc.
So, if a player ghosts a mission, they will score more "XP" than someone who does 50/50 mix of stealth & combat throughout a level?
On the heels of that - it hasn't been made very clear, but what exactly does the XP system do for the player? Ability upgrades, equipment purchases, something else?
SubJeff on 31/7/2013 at 20:26
Quote Posted by b1skit
Yes, you're correct Chade. Thanks for asking for a source, btw ;)
those who choose to stand their ground and fight will have the tools to help defend themselves instead of always being mercilessly cut down for a simple mistake
At higher difficulty levels this should not be the case, at all.
One of the great things about Thief was the tension. If you can stand and fight when you make a mistake the tension is removed.
Look at the Matrix 2 - there is no tension because you know Neo can beat the agents and whoever; their extreme toughness was the main source of tension in part 1. It was a mistake to overpower the main protagonist in that, it'd be a mistake in this.
b1skit on 31/7/2013 at 20:35
Quote Posted by Brethren
So, if a player ghosts a mission, they will score more "XP" than someone who does 50/50 mix of stealth & combat throughout a level?
Yes. The game is very much balanced to encourage stealth and stealth play is the most highly rewarded. The net XP gained by performing aggressive actions can be earned by stealthy players in other ways - 1 very small example would be completing "Don't be seen" objectives and/or "Don't kill anybody" objective, for instance. And no, this is not the only way the game or XP system is balanced to encourage stealth - just an example to illustrate a point.
Quote Posted by Brethren
On the heels of that - it hasn't been made very clear, but what exactly does the XP system do for the player? Ability upgrades, equipment purchases, something else?
No details on this have been revealed at this point - but it will be covered, in detail, over in the coming months. Obviously XP is used for upgrades - but of what, we'll share at a later date.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
At higher difficulty levels this should not be the case, at all.
Obviously combat is much more difficult at higher difficulty settings - but that really shouldn't come as a surprise.
Goldmoon Dawn on 31/7/2013 at 21:01
Quote Posted by b1skit
While players will have many more play style options than previously seen before in the Thief franchise, you'll quickly see that it's *much* more effective and rewarding to play stealthily and rely on your cunning/wits to outsmart the AI
Sounds great! When they release an actual game play demo for the fans to try before deciding to buy the game, this info will certainly come in handy. :)
Chade on 1/8/2013 at 04:25
Quote Posted by TTK12G3
You just answered your own question. I guarantee that there will not be anything close to a demo because "that won't communicate the proper experience", but you can rest assured that there will be overpriced pre-order "bonuses". They are planning to release this game in a year and a half. They definitely should have more than enough to show at this time.
I don't understand. We're talking about how EM can't communicate some details well in advance of the game being released and your answer is a demo?
Demo's certainly don't seem to be the done thing anymore. I'd love to know why they fell out of favour. This is nothing specific to EM though.
