Starker on 16/7/2013 at 11:41
Quote Posted by Chade
Starker, the source of Tim's quote is the "making of thief 2" video that came with thief gold. It's not some early mission statement about what thief was meant to be from day 1. Unfortunately, LGS never had a chance to build on those aspirations.
A postmortem is hardly an early mission statement. There are multiple quotes that confirm LGS wanted this to be a stealth game above all else, not the least of which is that they discarded metagame elements and "a form of player extra-sensory perception" in favour of a more stealth-centered experience. Sure, they might have thought about making an RPG in the same universe in addition to the stealth titles, but what does that prove exactly?
Quote Posted by Chade
And look, thief
did succeed! Particularly by the time of Tm's quote, they believed they had a hit on their hands. And, well, it was a hit. Stealth isn't as mainstream as some genres, and pure stealth in particular seems to be getting rarer. But it's hardly some obscure genre that nobody can appreciate. It has more mainstream appeal then many other once popular genres.
The question isn't whether Thief was commercially successful or not, but whether their goal was to sell as many copies as possible. If they had pursued a wider audience, would they have tried to make a game with a virtually unknown style of gameplay? What they did was truly something crazy and experimental. They didn't play it safe.
EM does look like it is attempting to include popular elements from other games and appeal to a more casual player who plays this game in the broad daylight on the TV (nothing wrong with that, but whether Thief is best suited for one of those experiences is rather debatable). Focus, XP progression and equipment upgrades sound like they are lifted straight from Tomb Raider or some other recent title and these seem just the kind of metagame elements that LGS was discarding in favour of a more immersive experience. Additionally, the swoop/dash, the QTEs and the timed escape segments are completely at odds with the slow methodical stealth of the previous games.
Now, it may be that all these elements work very well together, but even if that's the case, it will be a very different game from the Thief that we know. The question remains, is Thief something that has mass appeal for a wide audience or did it just happen to be (
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/videos/view/jimquisition/7161-Perfect-Pasta-Sauce) the pasta sauce that nobody was providing? I would think it is the latter.
legoman on 16/7/2013 at 12:12
Quote Posted by Starker
Now, it may be that all these elements work very well together, but even if that's the case, it will be a very different game from the Thief that we know. The question remains, is Thief something that has mass appeal for a wide audience or did it just happen to be the pasta sauce that nobody was providing? I would think it is the latter.
I think thief can appeal to a mass audience but only if it retains the flexibility in playstyles the player was afforded in the original games. Streamlining thief to be a purer stealth game, in which there exists the single mechanic of not being seen and heard, with combat not really an option, is going to suffer from being rather bland for most players (in the sense that there is little variation in gameplay and obviously I'm not including the small subset of players who truly enjoy said mechanic and build wonderful fan missions around it!). As much as I enjoy the concept of light/shadow based stealth, IMHO, the most refreshing level of thief 2 is Trail of Blood when restrictions are lifted to allow use of offensive tactics on the apebeasts.
One might argue that games like COD also contain bland repetitive gameplay, and indeed they do on the face of it, but such games gain popularity on the 'kewl' factor of big explosions and the latest graphics. There is not much 'kewl' in staring at the same hallway for the best part of a minute waiting for a slowly walking guard to pass. Not that I'm condoning COD, I think its a disgrace... apart from the co-op zombie mode, which is a laugh when played socially.
Springheel on 16/7/2013 at 12:18
Quote:
If they had a press release that said "We're making a game for the masses, we don't care about measuring up to the original Thief games" this place would (after some initial backlash) die a horrible death and traffic would creep down to nothing. People would just stop caring altogether.
They basically HAVE come out and said it, multiple times. I don't have time to track down the quotes right now, but see if these paraphrases sound familiar:
"The original games focused on stealth but we wanted to give the player different ways to play"
"the way people play games today is very different than it was back then"
"you don't have to know anything about the original stories to enjoy the game"
And this one is a direct quote:
"the aim has always been to create a unique title that builds upon the DNA of the classic Thief franchise, while innovating and covering new territory"
There's nothing wrong with wanting to create a unique game and supporting multiple playstyles, but that will often be in direct conflict with staying completely faithful to the originals.
Starker on 16/7/2013 at 12:34
Having combat in Thief is not an issue. Non-violence without the option for violence is entirely meaningless. However, I would argue that the combat in Thief is not very action-oriented. It takes a pretty long time to draw a bow and you aren't particularly fast with the sword either. I dare say that you aren't exactly encouraged to enter into combat. The stealth gameplay in Thief is like a big puzzle -- the game gives you tools for solving it and combat is a shortcut in the lower difficulty levels, but you still can't rush into it.
Now look at the gameplay video of New Thief and tell me if the pace hasn't changed.
legoman on 16/7/2013 at 13:02
Quote Posted by Starker
Having combat in Thief is not an issue. Non-violence without the option for violence is entirely meaningless. However, I would argue that the combat in Thief is not very action-oriented. It takes a pretty long time to draw a bow and you aren't particularly fast with the sword either. I dare say that you aren't exactly encouraged to enter into combat. The stealth gameplay in Thief is like a big puzzle -- the game gives you tools for solving it and combat is a shortcut in the lower difficulty levels, but you still can't rush into it.
Now look at the gameplay video of New Thief and tell me if the pace hasn't changed.
Unfortunately, the usual tool is just to whip out the blackjack and whack a guard from shadow at the most convenient angle, a foot will do. Hide the body, clear loot in near area, enter next room and repeat. Many of the tools are pretty redundant; who here made regular use of the scouting orb and noisemaker arrows without playing a self imposed manner like ghosting? The puzzle is pretty simple under the vanilla rules. Whilst this playstyle is great fun, thief really shines because occasionally a different approach is encouraged / available such as the forced ghosting in Framed, the removal of combat restrictions in Trail of Blood and the different options one may take against mechanist tech.
I don't think the pace of gameplay has changed that much, compare the gameplay in the EM demo to a similar level in Thief 2 such as Truart's manner. In the garden area of Truart's mansion, moving any slower than a run is largely pointless, one may quite easily run (and never touch the walk key) through the grassy areas and simply run in a wide circle to get behind guards. I'd go as far to argue that the pace is slower in the EM demo than the T2 example I've given here.
Dia on 16/7/2013 at 13:31
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
b1skit - read some of my post history. I'm not one of these crazy naysayers, ...
What.
Way to distance yourself SE, but for what reason? Since when do
you give a flyin' rat's butt what someone thinks about you? Maybe you should just go join the EM Thief Forums if you want your questions answered; I hear it's all about the Voice of Reason over there.
:laff:
Quote Posted by legoman
One might argue that games like COD also contain bland repetitive gameplay, and indeed they do on the face of it, but such games gain popularity on the 'kewl' factor of big explosions and the latest graphics. There is not much 'kewl' in staring at the same hallway for the best part of a minute waiting for a slowly walking guard to pass.
Which is why EM seems determined, in spite of all its claims that NuThief is a stealth game, to include 'exciting' stuff like the auto-parkour sequences, timed speed runs, etc. Hell, they've even said something to the effect of how boring it would be for many players to sneak slowly across rooftops and/or through the city streets. Yep; appealing to mass audience, just like they said. The game still looks to me as though it has the serious potential to be a trainwreck. I mean, borrowing aspects from all those currently popular games and making them fit while still claiming that NuThief is really an honest to goodness Thief game just like the originals has just
got to be a challenge.
;)
SubJeff on 16/7/2013 at 13:34
I don't want to be associated with jtr, Vae or Goldmoon and their verbose ranting, thanks. That's all.
Dia on 16/7/2013 at 13:36
As if anyone ever would?
;)
legoman on 16/7/2013 at 13:41
Quote Posted by Dia
Which is why EM seems determined, in spite of all its claims that NuThief is a stealth game, to include 'exciting' stuff like the auto-parkour sequences, timed speed runs, etc. Hell, they've even said something to the effect of how boring it would be for many players to sneak slowly across rooftops and/or through the city streets. Yep; appealing to mass audience, just like they said. The game still looks to me as though it has the serious potential to be a trainwreck. I mean, borrowing aspects from all those currently popular games and making them fit while still claiming that NuThief is really an honest to goodness Thief game just like the originals has just
got to be a challenge.
;)
I believe EM stated these things appear infrequently, which I can probably live with, if it fits the story well (I imagine Garrett moved pretty fast to Soulforge upon hearing of Victoria's assault). I am actually inclined to trust them on this since none of these things were shown off in the EM demo (with the exception of the the third person takedown *shudders*, this should be removed). I'm not really even bothered too much by the focus options in combat, I can't see it being anymore powerful than the flashbomb/blackjack combo in the originals.
Starker on 16/7/2013 at 13:46
Quote Posted by legoman
Unfortunately, the usual tool is just to whip out the blackjack and whack a guard from shadow at the most convenient angle, a foot will do. Hide the body, clear loot in near area, enter next room and repeat. Many of the tools are pretty redundant; who here made regular use of the scouting orb and noisemaker arrows without playing a self imposed manner like ghosting? The puzzle is pretty simple under the vanilla rules. Whilst this playstyle is great fun, thief really shines because occasionally a different approach is encouraged / available such as the forced ghosting in Framed, the removal of combat restrictions in Trail of Blood and the different options one may take against mechanist tech.
I don't think the pace of gameplay has changed that much, compare the gameplay in the EM demo to a similar level in Thief 2 such as Truart's manner. In the garden area of Truart's mansion, moving any slower than a run is largely pointless, one may quite easily run (and never touch the walk key) through the grassy areas and simply run in a wide circle to get behind guards. I'd go as far to argue that the pace is slower in the EM demo than the T2 example I've given here.
We are talking about core gameplay here, not deviations. The combat in Thief is aligned with the slow stealth gameplay which in turn is well suited for immersion, because you are taking your time creeping around and not speeding through the levels. The slow draw speed of the bow forces you to make every shot count, the slow movement speed discourages you from rushing into things etc.
When I talk about the pace of the New Thief, I don't mean just the movement speed. I'm talking about things like the dashing, the time it takes to get a shot off with the bow and combat speed.
This is why so many stealth action titles fail -- they try to provide two diametrically opposed experiences: for both the players who like waiting as well as for those who don't. The end result is that people who like the action will find the stealth boring and the stealth players won't care for the action sequences.
