Aerothorn on 4/11/2009 at 10:18
...wow.
I don't think I've ever seen a lengthy and/or non-sarcastic post from SDM before.
Tocky on 4/11/2009 at 12:20
Sh. I'm making him go all soft and cuddly before he starts preaching to chavs and gets himself killed. They aren't quite the same as us game forum killers.
edit: ooooo ooooo I remember a story I haven't told on here before and that's a rare thing so I'll rattle it off right quick.
Newyears 1980 Trafalgar square I'm going round getting the traditional kisses and some time after I'm standing bunched in tight in a crowd and I keep getting pinched. I finally catch who is doing it and it's this little shave headed kid. I look behind him and see a lot of shave heads. Skin-heads were chav precursers I guess. So I look the tallest guy in the eye and say in drunken bravado that the boy has passed the test, he's in, but if I feel one more pinch I'll take it out on his tall ass. Yeah. All 120 lbs I was at the time. I got no idea why I'm not dead. And I still got no cool fight story out of it either hmmm? Just turned my back. Hmm okay, I remember why I haven't told that one now. It sucks.
Crap. What if he wasn't just looking mock innocent and was startled by some mad american? Crap I'm late for work.
Paz on 4/11/2009 at 13:51
Quote Posted by Tocky
Where exactly was this thread going that was so lovely before I harshly yanked it to dainty pretty me? Face it, you wanted this baby. Oh yeah. You enjoyed it. Parade that thing baby. Shake it.
I don't think you can really say 'lol i'm pushing your buttons, dance my puppet dance!!' in response to a thoughtful post about ethics, but ok.
I agree that this thread was totally worthless before it became a discussion of justice/morality (now it's only borderline worthless); it's just a shame you aren't up to engaging with any of the issues raised.
TERRIBLE EVENTS make you (I say 'you', but take it as a catch-all for a lot of people on this thread) mad. That's cool, they make everybody mad. Getting mad about bad things is some real easy shit. Whatever anybody is posting in this thread, I think it's safe to say they'd unite on the whole 'no more puppies being kicked to death please' concept.
So we all get upset about that and we'd all rather it didn't happen, and doesn't happen any more. Cool. It shouldn't take three pages to get to that, but it does so whatever.
The reason it takes three pages is because for some reason threads like these bring out the sadistic revenge fantasist in people. Not only am I getting really mad, I'm going to impress the internet with just how nuts I am about this!! I mean, I guess that's ok too, although if it's your GO-TO response to TERRIBLE EVENTS then that's a little worrying.
The point is, this gettin-mad-and-wanting-to-get-even is basically fine if there's internal recognition that getting mad and having revenge fantasies is a Bad Thing to be doing. Ethically, morally, it doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. If you want to kill somebody for kicking a puppy - you ACTUALLY want to kill somebody, and think that would be a positive solution - then you are a Bad Person. It's pretty unambiguous. You're not protecting a legion of hypothetical puppies from the future. You just wanna experience the sweet sweet nectar of killing a guy under the pretense of social approval. That's a Bad Thing to want to do.
I mean obviously we can all construct some gruesome fantasy scenarios whereby revenge seems justified. Oh, he saw his kid flayed alive in front of him and then chopped up and then found himself alone in a room with the guy who did it. Well yes, I can see why that turned out the way it did. Does anybody really feel better about themselves now? It seems unlikely. And even if they do WHAT THEY DID WAS STILL WRONG.
It takes gigantic fucking balls to maintain moral fortitude. That's why it's the path for the Good Guys.
Singing Dancing Moose on 4/11/2009 at 14:19
lol jesus man coherence doesn't come easy to you huh
Quote Posted by Tocky
Did you read my post? You quoted it and then infered which isn't the same.
if that post has a reading other than "heh, I guess you NERDS can see how I feel about the Real Issues" then please tell me. Admittedly, calling everyone nerds is probably what I'd do, but I'm not the one who thinks comm chat is his big crazy family!
Of course you aren't really out there serving up vigilante justice, but you've
yourself that way. When called on that, you back off to "i'm just too old and world-weary to present anything other than execrable opinions." And that does annoy me. Damn, you totally socially engineered me dude . . . well played
If you'd like to explain how i could use knowledge as a tool to shape you instead of as a weapon to uh, 'vent' you, feel free.
Kolya on 4/11/2009 at 15:45
I'm losing it a bit here... Does anybody wanna come out and play puppy-ball now or what?
BEHOLD THE CANINE RAGDOLL PHYSICS BOY-O!!!! KA-SCHUNNNNNNG!!! OMG DID I HIT SOMEONE?!
Morte on 4/11/2009 at 16:32
Quote Posted by Paz
It takes gigantic fucking balls to maintain moral fortitude. That's why it's the path for the Good Guys.
I reckon the appeal of Terrible Event stories largely lies in the fact that they let you feel like a Good Guy without actually exhibiting any of that moral fortitude. Even if you habitually lie, steal and cheat, acts of pointless cruelty like this are so utterly alien to most people that they immediately feel revulsion -- as well they should, because it's indeed Terrible -- swiftly followed by feelings of superiority. It lets people go "Look at us, we're better than this extreme outlier of douchebaggery, so we're clearly the good guys."
Singing Dancing Moose on 4/11/2009 at 17:02
Yeah, I think you've got it there. The only thing I would add is that I don't think the extreme outliers of douchebaggery are so far removed from us that we should condemn them without some caution (though I don't think you in particular are saying that). While it's hard to say exactly why some people kick puppies to death and some don't, dividing the world into two tribes -- the good and the bad, the innocent and the guilty, us and them -- has never shown much in the way of results beyond more grief.
There are obvious reasons to take measures against more puppy-kicking, but the facile path of "the Good people won't do it and the Bad people have to be stopped" proposes knowledge even beyond fett's ability to gaze into a child's future and try them for the crimes they will commit.
Tocky on 5/11/2009 at 03:36
Quote Posted by Paz
The point is, this gettin-mad-and-wanting-to-get-even is basically fine if there's internal recognition that getting mad and having revenge fantasies is a Bad Thing to be doing. Ethically, morally, it doesn't have much of a leg to stand on. If you want to kill somebody for kicking a puppy - you ACTUALLY want to kill somebody, and think that would be a positive solution - then you are a Bad Person. It's pretty unambiguous. You're not protecting a legion of hypothetical puppies from the future. You just wanna experience the sweet sweet nectar of killing a guy under the pretense of social approval. That's a Bad Thing to want to do.
But do you really think that is what people do when others do loathsome shit? Or do they empathize with the victim and just wish the assholes wouldn't or couldn't do the loathsome shit? A helpless feeling because you know tomorrow there will be some other shithead so selfish they will sacrifice an innocents life to thier selfish desires. You know they can't be reached because of that lack of empathy. Anyone who kills has reached that ultimate selfishness.
Sweet nectar of killing under the pretense of social approval? Jesuschrist. I just don't see that. Killing has to be godawful. I think people vent. Some may wiegh thier own life and what good they have left to do against if only I had killed the bastard he wouldn't have done what he did but that is a farcry from enjoying killing. People vent because they feel helpless. They don't WANT to kill. They can't understand anyone who COULD seriously want to. I guess I could be wrong but I haven't seen any killers here. Sweet nectar? Man, my service was as a medic because I couldn't see it and would rather drag and duck. Holy crap.
Quote Posted by Singing Dancing Moose
if that post has a reading other than "heh, I guess you NERDS can see how I feel about the Real Issues" then please tell me. Admittedly, calling everyone nerds is probably what I'd do, but I'm not the one who thinks comm chat is his big crazy family!
Well sure. I care about people here. I've talked to some of them for years on years. And I've already reiterated my meaning. But yeah, real issues bother me. I've seen them affect people more deeply in my life than the diversions.
Quote:
Of course you aren't really out there serving up vigilante justice, but you've yourself that way. When called on that, you back off to "i'm just too old and world-weary to present anything other than execrable opinions." And that does annoy me. Damn, you totally socially engineered me dude . . . well played
You might be pissed at me but would you have opened up out of the blue? The only way to get any issues moving is to be extreme sometimes. Not that I'm not tired of assholes. But friendly people see that and think fuck I understand that and not dude you have shit opinions.
Quote:
If you'd like to explain how i could use knowledge as a tool to shape you instead of as a weapon to uh, 'vent' you, feel free.
Not me. Hell, swing away on me. You're doing good, I'll pick out the goodstuff and assimilate it. I goad for that. But don't figure everything is a battle you must win at the cost or expense of another as it belies your supposed concern for humanity. Is it a shit opinion to say humanity begins at home?
TBE on 5/11/2009 at 04:36
No one mentioned Ogden Edsl, which I thought this thread was about originally. Sorry, I've been traveling for a week.
Tocky on 5/11/2009 at 18:27
Nah. There just wasn't enough there unless you can add some. Right now we are playing with SDMs balls of steel.
Just for the record, I love his balls of steel and he is sharp as glass and twice as dangerous but he carries tags with him like a kgb file to win teh internets instead of just treating people like people. He is carving me into shape pretty good though so stick around.
Edit: Don't know if any of the taggers will check it out but I tagged an old thread of mine from 2004- Tockys violent nature- in it I'm a coward, a bit of a late hero, and get my ass beat but most important it might dispel the misconceptions Paz and SDM seem to have about me. Like most of my threads it landed flat but it gives some insight. The thread was called violence and manhood.
edit 2: I just read the thread myself and realized that, although it had few responses, those that were are among my favorite people and gave excellent post.
