Papy on 28/11/2007 at 08:42

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It's probably because of a culture difference, but I always viewed money as a way to get the reward, never as a direct reward in itself. Intrinsically, money is useless and has no value, except for the cost of its raw material. It is not, and will never be a clear and direct reward to me. For example, I always thought that giving a gift card for Christmas or as a birthday present, was really lame.

What I think was great about an upgrade canister was I viewed it as something money just couldn't buy. It was a priceless and not just a mundane piece of equipment, it was not some mere resources, and, as it had almost no drawback at all, it was really some kind of the ultimate reward.

Of course, we can debate if these kind of ultimate rewards, which cannot be manage by the player, are really that important in a video game like Deus Ex. The only way to be sure would be to try it. But I do know that Invisible War certainly made biomods somewhat more mundane and the result was not that great. I was far less excited about finding a biomods than finding an upgrade canister.



Look at Deus Ex. This game had a lot of design and technical flaws. If you search past discussions you will see that everyone did agree. AI was simply not good enough, graphics were not very good, some voice acting parts were clearly amateur, some level designs were inappropriate for what the game was trying to depict... Yet, most of us still think Deus Ex was one of the best ever made.

The truth is, for most of us, the only standard that we have is we want games that are not made with the 10 years old kid in mind. Unfortunately, it seems that this simple demand is already too much too ask.

Nameless Voice on 28/11/2007 at 19:07

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Head too far down that route, though, and you ask: why 'reward' people with 30.06 ammunition when some players never use it? Why not just make all the ammo universal, so that there's the most chance of what the player finds being useful to their playing style?

If you try to cater to every playstyle - to make it so that every choice or reward is equally valuable to every playstyle - then you just make the choices meaningless and all the paths merge into one.

Cyborg on 28/11/2007 at 20:44

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(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fkXCE8CkNZU)

I don't recall seeing this here before.. If so, check it out. Gives me the impression that there is something much deeper inside the surface of the teaser.

Papy on 28/11/2007 at 22:39

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I agree, but to be honest I never viewed a game as a way to express myself. To me, a game is something I try to win, not some kind of imaginary playground where I can let my imagination go wild. This is what Oblivion was about, and the fact is I found this game to be utterly boring. To me, a game is about finding the most efficient solution with the tools I have at my disposal (and according to my own abilities as a player), not simply about doing what I feel like.

It is of course possible to have a challenging game which offers a lot of freedom, but as I need the use of a resource to have a significant impact on the gameplay, and not merely be about cosmetics, I believe it is a dangerous thing to do. A game with too much freedom can make the system too complex, both for the developer who try to somewhat balance the game and for the player who try to know what he should choose.

(BTW, as I don't know exactly what you have in mind, I'm not sure if what I say is relevant)

I'll take two games I tried a few years ago. The first one was VGA Planets, the second was Stars!. Both were similar 4x PBEM with a space setting, but with the difference that VGA Planets ships were not really customizable and were really dependent upon the race of the player, while Stars! had mostly a free form design. Of the two, I think VGA Planets was the best. It did not allow as much freedom as Stars! as we had to choose from a very limited set of ship designs, and it was probably not as deep strategically, but it was also easier to pick up and, to me, more elegant. The first time I played with VGA Planets, I spent a few hours studying the rules and all my options, and I was able to come up with a "not so bad" strategy. On the other hand, the first time I played with Stars! I was just overwhelmed, I couldn't really get it, and my first try was a total failure.

With a story based game like Deus Ex, I believe the first play is the one that really counts. To me, subsequent plays are only to appreciate details, seek perfection or play with artificial limitations just for the fun of it. It is not about playing the game, but playing with the game system. So what I wonder is how can we be sure that a system, where the player has a lot of freedom when it comes to his abilities, will not become like Stars!, and really screw up the first play because of a too high complexity? How can we make sure that success in a complex game is based on thinking and not on luck? Isn't it a dangerous thing to try for a (mainly) one-shot game?


Anyway, it doesn't change the fact that what worries me the most about the money and free design approach is I believe we really appreciate only things we don't have at all. The people who really view freedom as a gift are generally the ones who don't have any. In fact, I described augmentation canisters as rewards, but because they were somewhat unexpected, I think the word gift is more appropriate to describe the way I view them.

Ok, here's a simplistic way to explain what I feel...

With the money system, I know that the object I want cost 500 credits. I play a little and I get 25 credits. Then I get another 25. The another. After some times, I am able to evaluate when I'll be able to have the reward and it's only a matter of being patient. When I finally have my 500 credits, I get the reward I want as planned, I am happy and I now think about my second one (which will unfortunately be less rewarding since it will be my second choice).

With a "canister" system, I know nothing. I have 0 and I wonder when I'll find one. After a while I still have 0 and I still wonder when I'll finally find one. I continue playing, I still haven't found anything and I'm now wondering if I didn't miss a hidden location somewhere. When I finally find my canister, I'm not only happy, even if it was not exactly what I was hoping for, but I am also relieved I found one.

For me, because of the fact I wasn't able to plan or expect anything, the reward with the canister system has simply more value than the same one with the money system.

van HellSing on 29/11/2007 at 16:59

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Just started playing DX again yesterday, and I already found mention of lack of public tolerance to augmentations. There's some stuff at UNATCO about how mechanically augmented agents had to sacrifice social acceptance.