Twist on 5/10/2008 at 00:41
Stealth has not been canned. You're over-reacting as a result of either misinformation you've read somewhere or your own misinterpretation of the word "cover."
Go to page two of the DX3 forum thread discussing this article, click on the link to the flickr account with the photos from the magazine article, then read about the expanded and revamped plans for stealth.
Yes, they're relying more on cover than shadow, but the original Deus Ex never had a developed stealth gameplay mechanic based on shadows. It relied more on level design than anything.
I think the word that's completely thrown people off is "cover." It's like people see that word and suddenly have violent epileptic fits. Jeez, chill. In the context of the article, it appears that "cover" in this case does not indicate the same sort of cover we associate with Gears of War.
Sure it may ultimately prove a disappointment anyways, but if you take the time to read some accurate source material you'll learn that comparing this to Gears of War or Halo (as you did in the Thief thread) is just plain ridiculous.
In this article the folks at Eidos Montreal seem to be going out of their way to emphasize their attempts to achieve a "more thoughtful stealth, hacking and social interaction RPG."
ZylonBane on 5/10/2008 at 02:30
Y'know, the original DX had a cover system-- if you wanted to not be seen, you found some cover and hid behind it.
Anything less natural than that, which the developers feel the need to call a "system", is bound to be artificial, gamey, and stupid.
Twist on 5/10/2008 at 02:50
From what I've read, it's possible it could be too gamey. I can't see it in the parts I've read, but I've read other people refer to some kind of icon feedback system. Now that could be annoying.
But I really don't think we know enough yet and I think the word "cover" is more something the author of the article used rather than something the developers wanted to emphasize.
Fafhrd on 5/10/2008 at 06:39
VE3D is running a (
http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/news/41963/Deus-Ex-3-is-an-RPG-According-to-Eidos) clarification of C&VG's story. Stealth relevant quote for the lazy
Quote:
For stealth, that is another major pillar of gameplay and we do have it. The difference is that it's now cover-based rather than "shadow/light-based" as in the past games.
Which could be taken either as 'cover
system' or it might just be line-of-sight based, which was really how it was in DX1. If it's a system, one could hope that it will be dynamic, as opposed to scripted 'stealth cover' spots like some weird combination of GoW and NOLF2.
Twist on 5/10/2008 at 07:57
Am I remembering the stealth mechanics of DX and IW all wrong?
I'm sorry but I don't remember light & shadow being a part of the functional stealth gameplay mechanic. The level design sometimes made it feel like light & shadow was part of it, but really it was just a line-of-sight based system... right?
Maybe I'm remembering it all wrong.
But I think René and company are just confusing the matter by specifically stating that the stealth system is no longer "shadow/light-based" when it never was light-based in the first place. :erg:
d'Spair on 5/10/2008 at 08:13
Like in Thief, you could hide in the shadows in Deus Ex. It was very immersive and very natural to the gameplay, though, of course, you couldn't succeed in sneaking as much as you can with Garrett in Thief, and that's fine.
If they mechanically take that light/shadow system away, i can't even imagine how lame it will be.
As ZB said, you could hide behind cover in Deus Ex. Moreover, you could hide behind cover even in Doom (monsters don't see you through walls, do they?). And how do you imagine this "switching to third person" mechanic? Each time, when you come close to the wall to hide around the corner, the game switches to third person? Or what?
From what I read from the article, it sounds more like there will be special zones or objects in Deus Ex 3 that will give you a hiding spot and which will trigger a switch to third person. I simply can't imagine how this can be seamlessly integrated into a classical Deus Ex gameplay.
Aja on 5/10/2008 at 08:25
They'll probably use a system like Gears of War, in which any solid object can be used for cover by pressing a button. The reason they go to third person is because it would be really disorienting to back up into a piece of cover, then pop out to shoot and pop back. Without an actual head to look around with, I can't imagine it working well. The success of this system depends on two easy things -- 1) the cover system must be universal: no gimmicky "only take cover in special areas" crap, and 2)the cover animation must be seamless. If they can manage that, it should play quite fluently. Gears, for all its flaws, has a very intuitive, non-gimmicky cover system -- Eidos Montreal would do well to use it as a template.
Twist on 5/10/2008 at 09:09
Quote Posted by d'Spair
Like in Thief, you could hide in the shadows in Deus Ex. It was very immersive and very natural to the gameplay, though, of course, you couldn't succeed in sneaking as much as you can with Garrett in Thief, and that's fine.
I'm pretty sure you're mistaken. I'm happy to be proven wrong, but I just loaded several levels in Deus Ex and played around messing with stealth & NPCs' reactions to me. I'm pretty confident light and shadow had nothing to do with the stealth system in the original Deus Ex.
It's strictly line-of-site, which is essentially what both ZylonBane and Fafhrd were describing.
The level design imparts a perception that you're skulking around in the darkness, but in fact NPCs don't really care how dark or light it is around you.
They seem to care about distance, line-of-sight (or cone-of-view) and to a lesser degree, sound.
I really think many people are giving the original Deus Ex too much credit for its stealth system. I still play Thief all the time; it's nothing like Thief.
And I still think there's some serious miscommunication going on from the developer to the media and then from the media to gamers and then from gamers in one forum to another forum.
It's a veritable clusterf$@k of misinformation right now, with hardcore old school Deus Ex fans being a little too eager to cry bloody murder over any miniscule detail of a game they know little to nothing about at this point.
For all we know the developers (or PC Zone) could be referring specifically to a combat-only cover system which may have little to do with an exploration-based stealth system, or vice versa.
Malleus on 5/10/2008 at 11:10
Quote Posted by Twist
I'm pretty confident light and shadow had nothing to do with the stealth system in the original Deus Ex.
Try loading up the Paris Cathedral level. Just before the actual cathedral, there is a huge stairs going down to the metro station (this is where you must go after you're finished in the cathedral). Surrounding the stairs is a roughly waist high wall, which casts shadows around it. I clearly remember an MJ12 soldier walking right past me while I was crouching in that shadow. I was totally surprised because I didn't think you could hide in the dark in DX. Try that place, if that doesn't work, then I don't know ... maybe I just dreamed it...:rolleyes:
FAKE EDIT: I just found a pic of the location (red arrow):
Inline Image:
http://img375.imageshack.us/img375/9282/deusex200401161304392rv6.jpginselaffe on 5/10/2008 at 12:01
Does it mention anything about shadows in the stealth part of the tutorial level? I can't remember
edit - it seems shadows do play a part: (
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=F9p-W6sjfwM) (see 9:00).
I think people just don't realise it as much because it's (rightly) not as pronounced as in thief but still of use (much like system shock 2).
