Production on Deus Ex 3 officially announced

Yakoob on 14/12/2007 at 02:30

Quote Posted by negativeliberty

Besides, don't tell me you never considered Alex Denton's blank personality to be a clue to his origins ;)

Alex D didn't have a blank personality - his whole hometown got blasted in a terrorist attack; THE HOMETOWN MAN, THE HOMETOWN!!!

ZylonBane on 14/12/2007 at 02:44

Quote Posted by negativeliberty

However in this context (namely two half a billion credit, 'constructed' even before birth, nano-augmented cyborgs) I think the Dentons can be classified as more android than cyborg

I disagree with your assessment.

negativeliberty on 14/12/2007 at 22:56

Quote Posted by Yakoob

Alex D didn't have a blank personality - his whole hometown got blasted in a terrorist attack; THE HOMETOWN MAN, THE HOMETOWN!!!

Oh right, his blankness was an expression of his almost insurmountable grief :cheeky:

Quote Posted by ZylonBane

I disagree with your assessment.

Good, DX should be open to interpretation ;) Anyway, I meant that he's probably more android than cyborg from a strictly technical point of view. Perhaps it's been too long since I played DX, but I distinctly remember his background to be one of the themes, and would therefore make Drew's idea pretty much a rehash.

Quote Posted by catbarf

Ding. What I'm hoping they don't do is make it so that your constant decisions through the game radically alter everything. In both predecessors, you only get that sort of power at the end, which was fine.

Exactly, and they should lose IW's failed attempt at instant gratification (in the form of the insta-skullcomms you got the SECOND you failed/succeeded an objective), it ought to take some time to see the effect of your decision (however great or slim the effect). In IW it felt like the entire gameworld was awaiting year every move, which of course is somewhat true for every game, but shouldn't be experienced as such (unless you're going for that Oblivion-like 'kill the monster save the world' thing).

DX is so replayable (which is but one of its merits) because of the rich gameworld (which includes memorable characters etc.) and great choice in gameplay, not because of the nonlinearity.

BlackCapedManX on 14/12/2007 at 23:06

Quote Posted by negativeliberty

However in this context (namely two half a billion credit, 'constructed' even before birth, nano-augmented cyborgs) I think the Dentons can be classified as more android than cyborg (which, ironically but true, doesn't in any way diminish their humanity).

Which is why they aren't androids. The cyborg moniker signifies enhanced or altered humanity, androids on the other hand are completely removed mimicries of humanity. The fantastic divergence between the two is that the best android is indistinguisable from human, while the best cyborg would give a whole new range of abilities that humans don't normally possess. In DX the mechanical agents are clearly cyborgs, and the nanotech agents (from unatco's POV) are simply a solution to the problem of social awareness about the mechs.

The conjunction with that is that the MJ12 goal for nanotech augmentations is the interfacing potential to allow unimaginable possibilities for advancing humanity (mirrored in Helio-Denton's goal in IW). However they are not inclined to reconstruct an alternative to humanity, as would be the goal of creating androids. In fact since Page uses Denton as a template for his own augmentations, it's an intrinstic truth that Denton's humanity must be intact or Page would scoff the concept of augmenting himself.

That would imply by your logic that cloned individuals are infact not human, but androids, for their "synthetic" nature.

Woggy on 15/12/2007 at 06:05

On the topic of skill development.
I also was thinking about that today, and I really don't like the idea of your skill improving in something the more you do it. It's got too many problems - consider lockpicking. If you just lockpick your way around, you're going to get better regardless. It comes at *no cost*, do you know what I mean? Another idea was suggested that may resolve this, in which you 'forget' other skills. IMO thats just plain annoying!

I have another idea, which i posted on both official forums but I want some good and insightful comments :cheeky: The following assumes we're going to be playing a prequel and a mechanically augmented agent, however. Being a mechatronics engineering student, I'd love to see this :cheeky:

The biggest problem with the original skill point system was that it didn't really make any sense and didn't tie into the world. Another problem was that there were too many skills. I'd say the skill system should be transformed into a sort of passive augmentation system. Instead of points, you find electro-mechanical part packages in the game world. Note that parts are completely generic and can be used for any upgrade. Specific part upgrades would be cool, though maybe a bit over complicated and probably not flexible enough. You improve yourself by using these parts to upgrade yourself at a medbot. The interface would be very much like the Deus Ex 1 augmentation interface, except instead of augmentations, you'd be upgrading sub-systems in your body - things like servos, actuators, sensors, chips, and so on. They can all be upgraded into several different levels.

I didn't really think through the following too well, but just an example of what can be done :-

Heavy - Shoulder/Chest reinforcement upgrades for sturdier carrying and better aiming of heavy weapons

Pistol/Rifles - Arm stabilizers to lessen recoil and improve aim. Optional breathing stabilization for sniping :cheeky:

Ocular implants can provide general aim improvement for all ranged weapons?

Low-Tech - Arms/shoulder/chest mechanical muscle upgrades

Environmental/Swimming - Various filters and extractors that can be combined. Should be fairly cheap in terms of cost in parts. Kinda like this idea myself - install oxygen extractors for longer swimming times, air filters to protect against poisoned air and such.

Lock picking - Fine-motor control upgrades in wrist/hand/forearm (finger muscles and tendons)

Electronics - EM resonance detection head implant. Remember how the Deus Ex multi-tools worked? Electromagnetic resonance detection + frequency modulation of current? If you could detect the electromagnetic waves in the circuitry yourself, you'd hack through electronic systems better with the aid of a multitool ;) Obviously this shouldn't really matter to the player, but rationalizing it in the context of the world makes the game more immersive. Remember one of the things that made Deus Ex so great was that you could read more into things if you chose to do so, like the little book on multi-tools during training.

Medicine - Hardware (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expert_system) expert systems chips ... you already have access to a medical database, I suppose? :)
Oh and maybe to make this more useful, at an advanced level it allows you to install augmentations and parts yourself without the aid of a medbot.

Computer - Like above, expect for computing. Basically, just chips that aid in quicker and better decision making. Kinda doesn't make sense since these systems are software based, but perhaps the software is highly parallel and works better with multiple processors? Once again, just trying to rationalize it!

Once again most of it is just detail the player doesn't NEED to know. In the end its still a skill system with 'points', except tweaked and executed a little differently and its more immersive. IMO traditional point-based RPG skill systems work very well, their biggest downfall is that they never really tie into the game that well.

It COULD also tie in nicely to the trans-humanism thing. Maybe this is over complicating things, but you can get more powerful upgrades that are more visually intrusive and can damage your conversational abilities, or less powerful but more discrete upgrades that leave you 'more human' and likable to the general public ... might not work in a game like Deus Ex, which isn't as open-ended as say, Torment. What do you think? Maybe instead this can apply to the active augmentation system instead (ie. deus ex 1 augs/deus ex 2 biomod system). I'll admit its a bit simplistic and isn't too well though out.

Comments please!

Pyrian on 15/12/2007 at 08:20

...So, basically, you thought Invisible War did it right, then? :erg:

Woggy on 15/12/2007 at 08:50

Hmm? You still have your usual active augmentations, except instead of spending skill points, you mechanically upgrade your character attributes. Thats what I mean by 'passive' augmentation. Its pretty much the same Deus Ex 1 system, except I tried to think of a way to make it relevant to the game world. Not sure how its similar to IW? :confused: I didn't mean replace the Deus Ex 1 augmentation system.

Papy on 15/12/2007 at 20:11

Quote Posted by Woggy

If you just lockpick your way around, you're going to get better regardless. It comes at *no cost*, do you know what I mean?

No, I don't, unless you're viewing lock picking as an extremely easy mini-game, to a point where it's game breaking, like the one in Oblivion. I'm not sure I want a mini-game in the first place and if there is one I want my character skill to be the main factor of my success, not my ability to click on a mouse button.

Quote Posted by Woggy

Another idea was suggested that may resolve this, in which you 'forget' other skills. IMO thats just plain annoying!

A game should be "annoying" otherwise choices don't matter and there is no real feeling of reward. Games that always try to please the gamer are just plain boring (Again, see Oblivion as an example).

Quote Posted by Woggy

The biggest problem with the original skill point system was that it didn't really make any sense and didn't tie into the world.

Deus Ex was a game, not a simulation. The skill system didn't make sense from a simulation point of view, but it was expected from an RPG point of view and so was not a problem at all.

Quote Posted by Woggy

Another problem was that there were too many skills.

What? No way. I want more.

Quote Posted by Woggy

Specific part upgrades would be cool, though maybe a bit over complicated and probably not flexible enough.

Complicated? No. I don't see what would be complex with that approach. Not flexible? That's probably a good thing. I don't want to another piece of shit where the "game" is just about letting the player do whatever he wants. I want to play with a game, not with a Barbie doll. I want to face problems, I want to have to find my way and I want to have to adapt. I begin to think when I have to adapt and find a solution, not when I can do the first thing that crosses my mind.

Quote Posted by Woggy

In the end its still a skill system with 'points', except tweaked and executed a little differently and its more immersive. IMO traditional point-based RPG skill systems work very well, their biggest downfall is that they never really tie into the game that well.

So you are willing to throw down the drain something that works well, in the hope of making it more plausible in a "realistic" kind of way? Do you really think that would help the feeling of immersion? Can you define exactly what is immersion? Because from my point of view, the feeling of immersion is mainly the consequence of having to concentrate on the game itself. A boring game will never give you a feeling of immersion. Of course different people will find different things boring or interesting, but it has nothing to do with realism.

Woggy on 15/12/2007 at 21:31

You post is self-contradicting.

Quote:

I don't think you understood me. With the Deus Ex skill system you have limited resources . With a learn-as-you-go system, your only 'limited' resource is time. You can master lockpicking without sacrificing anything else.

Quote:

Err... okay, so I'm guessing Deus Ex was a 'piece of shit' since it had generalized skill points? And how does it let you do whatever you want, anyway? You still have limited resources, parts/skill points.

Quote:

Deus Ex was a game, not a simulation. The skill system didn't make sense from a simulation point of view, but it was expected from an RPG point of view and so was not a problem at all.

I fail to see how fleshing out a skill system to integrate it better with the game world makes it a simulation. Ironically, you say this straight after defending the idea of forgetting skills and learn-as-yo-go skills ... Oh, and do you really think the game is going to be set in such a long time period that forgetting things is going to be an issue?

Quote:

Down the drain? Rubbish. As I said, its practically the same system, just dressed up differently. I agree, the RPG skill point system works GREAT.
By breaking immersion, I mean walking down a hallway and getting a message informing you that you just got a 30 point achievement bonus. That BREAKS immersion. It doesn't really MEAN anything. You then go into this interface thats basically a list of attributes. Its a complete disconnection from the game world. By immersion, I mean being immersed in the games world.
Being immersed in Deus Ex's world is a different type of immersion than being immersed in a game of Tetris.

Instead of scrolling a list of attributes, why not have an interface where you work 'directly' with your body? It makes sense in the context of the game world. Its more tangible, rewarding. and imho would be more fun too.

Wasn't Deus Ex great because of the detailed world around you? The deep characters? The interesting and engaging story? The choices and emotional consequences? It all adds to the immersion of being part of this world.

What made Deus Ex so great for you?

Papy on 16/12/2007 at 02:28

Quote Posted by Woggy

You post is self-contradicting.

Hmmm... Maybe... Or maybe you just didn't understand what I wrote.

Quote Posted by Woggy

Oh... So that's what you meant with "no cost". I guess I could debate on this (for the fun of playing Devil's advocate), but as I don't like grinding either, I'll just agree with you.

Quote Posted by Woggy

You are guessing wrong. Of course I don't have a problem with a general resources that the player can apply as he wants among several choices. It can be money, skill points, upgrade canisters... But what I really don't like is that you want to integrate skills with augmentations and then eliminate specific in this new system. Basically, integrating skills with augmentations and then eliminating specific "parts", really means destroying augmentation canisters and the skill "resources", and then keeping only upgrade canisters for everything. I simply don't like this kind of simplification. This look to me exactly like Invisible War.

Quote Posted by Woggy

This is an out of context interpretation. What I said was just an excuse for a kludge to eliminate grinding in a skill system based on player's actions, not something I want. It was a possible compromise between me, who don't want grinding, and other people who use the "realism" excuse to justify that system.

To be honest, I don't care much about presentation issues. I have no problem playing abstract games. I can have fun playing with ideas, try to find adequate presentation, but in the end, I don't really care. The only thing that really matters to me is the gameplay. You want a presentation that seems "tied" to the game world? No problem with me, but if the solution you propose can lead to a worse gameplay, then I strongly disagree. Unfortunately, as I said, your solution looks a lot like Invisible War's simplification to me and that's what I find important.

Quote Posted by Woggy

By breaking immersion, I mean walking down a hallway and getting a message informing you that you just got a 30 point achievement bonus. That BREAKS immersion. It doesn't really MEAN anything. You then go into this interface thats basically a list of attributes. Its a complete disconnection from the game world. By immersion, I mean being immersed in the games world.

Skill points doesn't mean anything "real", except for an abstract concept of experience, but it never broke "immersion" for me. Why does the abstract concept of skill points breaks immersion for you, while an obviously bad AI and ridiculously simplistic level design that scream "I'm a video game" don't? If Deus Ex used "cyber modules" or any other "tangible" explanation instead of skill points, it would not have made any difference for me.

You are right that immersion while playing Tetris is different than immersion while playing Deus Ex. Tetris is about concentration while doing one particular and simple thing in order to be the most efficient possible. On the other end, Deus Ex is about learning in a broad sense. From the spatial configuration of a level to (the far more immersion provoking) character understanding. Basically, it's two completely different cerebral activities and this lead to two completely different feelings of immersion.

I was immersed with Deus Ex because of all the things I had to learn. Skill points were certainly not breaking that in any way. Skill points did not made the world less detailed, they did not made characters shallow, they did not made the story less engaging and they did not remove choices or emotional consequences.

Edit : Anyway, skill points with Deus Ex were tied to the game world, you just failed to see it. The explanation is quite simple, although it's true the game doesn't tell you anything about it. What is happening is that you have nano-implants in your brain that helps you reconfigure your synapses. Unfortunately, these implants can only use new synapses. As you probably know, the creation of those new synapses are linked to learning. So what happens is when the character explore (learn) a new place or learn a new information, either directly or as a result of inference, new synapses are created and the implant can then use some of them to a form of artificial synaptic improvement. When the implant have enough new synapses to play with, the feedback system makes it known to you using a mechanism similar to the infolink, and you can then choose how this implant with allocate those new synapses to different skills.