SubJeff on 7/9/2013 at 16:37
Quote Posted by Tomi
I haven't played Deadly Shadows in ages so I may have forgotten some of the flaws of the control system, but I can't remember this "falling off edges" ever being a real problem for me. So yeah, I wouldn't call it broken. You lean off an edge in real life, and you may fall if you're not careful enough. Once you get used to it, it shouldn't be much of a problem. However, of course it is a problem if you really
want it to be one...
If you can't lean without sidestepping then you've obviously got some medical problem. In TDS you always take a massive sidestep and even if you don't fall of an edge it still takes you into the light, thus breaking the lean-stealth mechanic. I only fell off an edge twice with it, but it shouldn't happen at all.
Regardless - even the walking was broken.
TriangleTooth on 7/9/2013 at 17:03
TDS would have worked fine if Garrett's body followed the camera rather than moving only in response to keys. Free movement takes priority, and the body awareness can catch up (potentially looking weird if necessary, like the feet spinning around, but good animations avoid this) not the other way around where my movement waits for the body to be in the right position.
Goldmoon Dawn on 7/9/2013 at 18:48
Formal agreeance.
:ebil:
Lest the blasphemers disremember that an individual immersed in 1st person gaming tends to get as close to an edge as possible before looking up, down, or leaning forward and sideways. When turning and running means that your body must first swing itself around, you tend to *fall off* things.
The tradeoff is that you can simply conform yet again to mediocrity and soldier on in the name of NuTeam and its unabashed consumerism.
Vivian on 7/9/2013 at 22:29
the word is agreement
Chade on 8/9/2013 at 11:54
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
Open minded? More like without any standards.
I have two simple standards: a game must have goals I can appreciate, and for the most part it must achieve those goals. I look at individual components of that game based on how they contribute to that overall picture. IMO this is the only sensible approach. Any other standards are simply ... sub-standard.
I'm happy enough with the way Thief 3 controls contributed to the overall game experience. While not as easy as previous games, I personally had no trouble mastering them (ten minutes with the game and you should never have any troubles on ledges or beams IMO), and I find that the extra awareness of your body that thief 3 requires feels appropriate in a thief game.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
b. With a bit of care a rifle scope that is out by 50cm will be on target. Does that make it accurate?
Irrelevant metaphor, pretty much completely misses the point I was making. To be more relevant we could ask whether such a rifle might be appropriate in a game where the player plays someone desperate for guns and happy to take any old and crusty firearm he can get. I'd potentially say yes.
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
Lest the blasphemers disremember that an individual immersed in 1st person gaming tends to get as close to an edge as possible before looking up, down, or leaning forward and sideways. When turning and running means that your body must first swing itself around, you tend to *fall off* things.
Yep, went right up to edges. Never fell down. Seriously, it's not that hard. A few taps of the strafe button and away you go, turning on a dime.
Goldmoon Dawn on 8/9/2013 at 14:59
Quote Posted by Chade
Yep, went right up to edges. Never fell down. Seriously, it's not that hard. A few taps of the strafe button and away you go, turning on a dime.
Interesting, you were able to conquer and master the handicapped movement in Deadly without one mistake, yet you had difficulty mantling in Thief: The Dark Project. I dont know what to make of this!
All I know is that I couldnt handle the broken movement in Deadly, and as such it forced me to play through the game without any type of "creative exploration". I just ran straight through as much as possible. Many other people took severe issue with the movement as well.
Oh well, I havent played it 10 years and have no inclination to go back and see if I can master it like you seem to have. Besides, even if the movement *was* adequate I still wouldnt go back and play, because the game was inferior is so many other ways it just wouldnt be worth it.
SubJeff on 8/9/2013 at 16:14
Quote Posted by Chade
Irrelevant metaphor, pretty much completely misses the point I was making. To be more relevant we could ask whether such a rifle might be appropriate in a game where the player plays someone desperate for guns and happy to take any old and crusty firearm he can get. I'd potentially say yes.
I would be too.
Is Garrett supposed to be physically handicapped in TDS? Didn't think so.
The fact is the movement is substandard. You had to adapt to it, you've admitted that. Why should you have to? In Thief 1 and 2 you didn't. And I'll echo Goldmoon here - you found Thief 1 and 2s controls lacking somehow but TDSs were fine? That's nonsense and you're being ridiculous.
Goldmoon Dawn on 8/9/2013 at 19:22
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
an individual immersed in 1st person gaming tends to get as close to an edge as possible before looking up, down, or leaning forward and sideways. When turning and running means that your body must first swing itself around, you tend to *fall off* things.
Quote Posted by Chade
I'm happy
enough with the way Thief 3 controls contributed to the overall game experience. While not as easy as previous games, I personally had no trouble mastering them (ten minutes with the game and you should never have any troubles on ledges or beams IMO)
Understand that I am a veteran of not only Thief, but Ultima, Wizardry, and Might and Magic. I grew up with the evolution of 1st person physics in computer gaming.
About that there Deadly Shadow game...
Yes, after I "immersed myself" into the title for the first time, with expectations at an almost elite high, shrugging off florescent footprints, strangely placed and glowing loot, and ladders that felt like you were boarding a carnival ride, it finally happened.
I was into the game enough and suspending disbelief in the name of pure honor for a series that I hold dear, sneaking around with a somewhat straight face, when I found myself finally on top of some beams in a roof somewhere, where I was actually looking down at some moronic imitation of Dark Project AI dawdling about.
I was almost fully immersed and feeling good about spending that fifty dollars, as I plotted how I was gonna have fun with my first attempt at some actual creative gameplay. I had worked out a reasonably funny plan, and so I turned to run and my dude did this weird pseudo-swing around and I fell off the beam and right on top of some big metal wheel or something, and there they were. Those damn guards who chopped me to bits.
That was the defining moment for me, where all semblance of serious play was lost. Sure, I quickly mastered how to do the NuControls, hard to believe it took anyone ten minutes, but you know what? It was cumbersome at best, and I did the purposeful and crucial gameplay slowing hip-swing-around maneuver in 1st person pc mode only once. I just couldnt surrender my adoration of classic gaming long enough to actually "sneak" through these profoundly lacking environments with NuControl. I just ran as best I could, blindly butchering my way through, and yes, that surely includes any proximate peasants. I got to the "assassin enforcer" segment or whatever, and just laughed myself to sleep.
Deadly Shadow...
A fun and surprisingly competent 1st person medieval-style shooter. Unfortunately, the superficial overtones and outright disrespect to Dark Project was even too comical for one, such as myself, to actually see through to completion. I got it. I knew it was an intended mockery of sorts, strangely in a vaguely similar vein to Might Magic IX and Ultima IX, and their notable exits. Wizardry VIII however, what a brilliant and masterful finale to the series. Nevertheless, back to Deadly...
I tried NuControl.
Of course, I immediately stopped playing the game and relegated the flawed creation to its rightful place in the stinking and mired bog of failed video game detritus.
:ebil:
Chade on 8/9/2013 at 21:58
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
Interesting, you were able to conquer and master the handicapped movement in Deadly without one mistake, yet you had difficulty mantling in Thief: The Dark Project.
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
And I'll echo Goldmoon here - you found Thief 1 and 2s controls lacking somehow but TDSs were fine? That's nonsense and you're being ridiculous.
Woah!
Let's be clear here ... the only issues I had with mantling in thief 1-2 are the same issues that most people had with it, and I certainly don't consider those issues to be big problems. I have never said that thief 1-2's controls are harder then thief 3. Goldmoon is taking some posts of mine about mantling
severely out of context.
Hell, I even said a few posts ago that I'd take thief 1-2's movement controls over thief 3 if given the choice, so this particular line of attack is pretty stupid.
(Thief 3 does have better mantling then thief 1-2 though. But it' not a big issue, and it's a small part of the overall picture.)
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
The fact is the movement is substandard. You had to adapt to it, you've admitted that. Why should you have to?
Sure, I completely agree, which is why I said a few posts ago that I'd take thief 1-2's movement if given a choice. But it's a small part of the overall picture, and I think the extra care taken when moving around feels appropriate to a thief game, so I'm just not very worried about it.
Quote Posted by Goldmoon Dawn
so I turned to run and my dude did this weird pseudo-swing around and I fell off the beam ... That was the defining moment for me, where all semblance of serious play was lost. Sure, I quickly mastered how to do the NuControls, ... It was cumbersome at best ... I just couldnt surrender my adoration of classic gaming long enough to actually "sneak" through these profoundly lacking environments with NuControl. I just ran as best I could, blindly butchering my way through
Look, if a few minor control issues completely ruin your ability to take a game seriously, that's fine. I can understand that for some people, control issues could be really important. What I don't understand is how you can possibly justify getting on your high horse about it. To me it looks like you're throwing the baby out with the bathwater and then boasting about it.
When I think about thief 3 and how it compares to earlier games in the title, I focus on things like dynamic shadows, improved AI, rope arrows becoming climbing gloves, smaller levels. These are things that deeply affect the possibilities during play. Control issues, on the other hand ... well, they're just a speed-bump.
Goldmoon Dawn on 8/9/2013 at 22:45
Brother Chade
:ebil:
