Celtic_Thief on 19/9/2006 at 05:36
Quote Posted by Scots_Taffer
That's not magic happening in your pants.
But it is in mine.
paloalto on 19/9/2006 at 06:00
Quote:
If Jesus was divine (in whole or in part), then wasn't his sacrifice meaningless or at least greatly diminished? Surely the magnitude of a sacrifice is proportional to the value place on that which is sacrificed by the person who sacrifices it.
And since, in other parts of the Bible, Jesus goes around saying things like "he who believes in me, though he die shall yet live" and the whole Afterlife idea, and also visibly demonstrating the fact that death is not irreversible thanks to God (Lazarus, I don't know if there were others), it's fair to postulate that the death and resurrection of Jesus was more of a demonstration than a sacrifice.
Certainly in the "I am the resurrection and the life" etc it's clear that these are words of faith and promises of "everything's going to be fine no matter what", but the Lazarus stuff there's a definite message that those beloved of God need not fear death, because death can be impermanent and in fact reversed.
Anyway, what I'm getting at is that if one begins with the assumption that Jesus was in fact divine, then his afterlife in Heaven beneath the smiles of God with all the joy and peace Heaven brings is assured. Assuming of course that his resurrection isn't assured anyway. And my understanding of the teachings suggests that one of the fundamental underpinnings of it all revolves around the idea that no matter how shitty things are now, no matter what trials and tribulations you endure, everything will be great and worth it when you show up in Heaven and discover that yes there really is a wonderful reward for those who, despite adversity, managed to stay true to God's way as imparted through the sermons of his avatar Jesus... And of course who could be more expected to know, understand, and follow God's way as imparted through the sermons of his avatar Jesus than the avatar Jesus himself?
Again, I'm still assuming for the discussion that it is a fact that Jesus was, in whatever way, divine.
Here we have the fundamental problem of Christianity today.The definition of Jesus Christ.In the Bible Jesus shows up in Bethlehem.But he states he has been here from the foundation of the world.And he states that no one gets to heaven except through him.If you take that statement literally then there can be only one true religion, Christianity.However if the Christ apart from Jesus is referring to some aspect of himself that is universally attainable by all in spite of your religion then it does not invalidate other religions.
If Jesus through many lives started out on our level and through spiritual initiations attained to the level that can be called the Christ then his miracles,along with the crucifixion and the resurrection were public demonstrations of spiritual initiations that all must go through in some form or another.It also would have more meaning for me that he started out on this level and attained rather than just being Divine from the beginning.
I mean if Jesus is already God,why are his miracles such a big deal?
And of course Lazarus died again later on I assume of something else.
Did that assure him a spot in heaven?
Personally I bielieve the "Christ" contains the soul pattern before the Fall happened.And the Christ being the Son contains the original pattern of the Father.The Christ means the anointing,the son is anointed by the Light of the Father.
Unfortunately the current view of Jesus "saving" you takes you out of the loop of initiation and achieving spiritual progress by your own actions.
Gingerbread Man on 19/9/2006 at 07:00
Quote Posted by ercles
I do believe that GBM's logic isn't exactly flawless
Oh, me too. That wasn't a Gotcha, that was just a semi-naive question in search of more learned perspective.
scumble on 19/9/2006 at 08:00
This talk of whether Jesus made a genuine sacrifice for everyone's sins reminded me of Tolkein (a devout catholic) describing the way it was for the "Wizards" sent by the Valar to rescue men from the mess of Middle-earth.
I don't have any quotes to hand, but the wizards were described as having a memory of the divine (Valinor), perceiving the place of their origin only dimly, such that they could stray from their purpose (Saruman and Radagast).
This is a vague hint towards how Tolkein may have viewed this sort of question of Jesus' authentic suffering. As a man he may have this vague perception of his divinty, but essentially capable of suffering like any other man. Even if you believe you are going to heaven (i.e. home), being crucified will still be pretty grim. In fact, you could say that going through being condemned and crucified voluntarily is in fact quite a sacrifice.
I'm hardly one to defend Christianity overall as sound and reasonable, but the fact that Jesus is supposed to be god doesn't necessarily lead to the conclusion that Jesus was just "putting on a show". That's why I thought of what I read in the Silmarillion. Overall Tolkein's work is full of stuff that is born out of catholic theology in one way or another. He did say LOTR was a "Profoundly catholic work" after all.
Raven on 19/9/2006 at 10:16
Hmm interesting points, I wonder if anyone has ever thought about such things before? Oh wait, they have… for about 2000 years (and before)…. Damn if only they left some sort of legacy, that bible could be very misleading if taken in the wrong context… If only there was some sort of authority that we could trust in… have any of you actually bothered to read this thing?
(
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/ccc_toc.htm)
(
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm)
(
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s2c2a2.htm#III)
(
http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p122a3p1.htm#III)
As a catholic I believe that Jesus gave us a pretty clear message, and that message is fulfilled in the Catholic Church.
Is it a really a surprise that an appreciation of the mysteries of faith might require some study and meditation? Just because it is Christianity and hence now-a-days entrenched in western culture doesn’t mean there is a quick fix in this… I love the way people seem to reverie Buddhist teachings, Hindu mysteries even Jewish and Islamic tradition but as soon as it comes to Christianity – they expect that everything should be able to be explained on a pamphlet… probably due to all those bloody western/American churches and communities posting bloody leaflets through your door… ah, yes thank you 2000 + about 6000 years of the fundamental mystery of human life and purpose and you have condensed it onto a flyer, why thank you, - I’ll take a quick glance and then get involved in a debate about the popes right to call Muslims violent terrorist, that was the just of what he was saying right? Damn I wish they would give me a flyer on the subject.
Matthew on 19/9/2006 at 10:27
Very late, I know (being 1 day and about 3 pages ago :erm:), but yeah Convict, I was gently pointing out that incorporating 'pagan' festivals etc into a religion is not solely the preserve of Islam. I have no idea wtf Fragony's response to it was meant to say, given that I think he ignored what I was saying.
I'm now trying to think of a response to Raven that doesn't sound snarky.
Convict on 19/9/2006 at 10:31
To throw out more ideas to GBM maybe the sacrifice was God the Father sacrificing Jesus (sacrificial lamb comparison) and the sacrifice was having His Son be killed by His enemies. I think the cup of wrath thing is probably also important.
Raven on 19/9/2006 at 10:32
snark away, I am use to it :cool:
-- oh yeah, God doesn't NEED anything from us, everything was done with us in mind and out of love for us. (yes I speak in absolutes due to my postion of faith)
JACKofTrades on 19/9/2006 at 11:13
Quote Posted by Gingerbread Man
Anyway, what I'm getting at is that if one begins with the assumption that Jesus was in fact divine, then his afterlife in Heaven beneath the smiles of God with all the joy and peace Heaven brings is assured.
I think the hurdle here is that for the whole Jesus as Christ thing to have any real meaning is that you have accept that it was
possible (as a real man, not some kind of hybrid god-man) for him to fuck up and render the whole process a failure.
SD on 19/9/2006 at 11:17
How could he fuck up when God is infallible, and he is God?
