ercles on 19/9/2006 at 01:56
Thats right... It's all coming back to me (sorry it's been a few years since I gave up on religion so I'm a bit rusty on the bible side of things). Another element of Jesus' sacrifice was that it removed the middle-man so that people could communicate directly with God. Before Jesus came and died, people used to go to the temple to talk to the priests (or whatever they were called). The priests would then walk into a separate area of the temple sectioned off with a huge ass curtain. This area allowed them to be in the presence of God, and communicate with him. According to the Bible, when Jesus died this huge curtain suddenly tore in two, removing the separation between God and his people. So yes, it was the ultimate sacrifice that allowed people to be forgiven for their sins now just by praying, rather than offering lesser sacrifices as previously
Gingerbread Man on 19/9/2006 at 02:02
Quote Posted by fett
the metaphysical suffering of the cross
Hmm.
So kinda like Father Karras at the end of The Exorcist. :D
That's certainly something for me to chew on. If I look at it with an eye to the metaphysical, and continue to frame it in Judeo-Christian terms, then there seem to be more profound (though still possible entirely metaphorical, even from a faithful point of view -- not that metaphor weakens the message at all) and provocative facets.
I always wonder though... I can find profound truths in a children's story if I speculate and draw conclusions that further an interpretation I've already decided to construct, and there's a large specter of that hanging over theology at all turns and with all faiths. I can start with the conclusion that the three little pigs represent Charlemagne, Pope Gregory III, and Joan of Arc, and probably draw enough metaphor out of the fairy tale to support this.
Regardless, I don't think it matters. Sure, centuries of study and interpretation and conjecture have given us Dan Brown's tour de force The DaVinci Code, but oh wait. :D
No, I mean, there's a vast amount of legitimate scholarly study out there, and continues to be, and the stuff that never strays from canon is always the most interesting. I tend to view it as the same basic processes that refine and shape science and law. Or something. All I know is that Rabbis can be really interesting and intense dudes, and I attribute that to their constant attempts to come to grips with what they believe. Unlike the vast majority of Christian clergy, who don't seem to do much but either accept things on face value without question or pervert things to suit their own personal agendas. But that's another story, and bears no relation to whatever it is I'm still trying to force out of my disappointingly-small skull.
Besides, that "metaphysical suffering" gives me new insight into Paradise Lost, and I always like finding new ways to look at Paradise Lost.
SD on 19/9/2006 at 02:41
Quote Posted by Gingerbread Man
Kind of in a similar vein, and maybe this is an Old Hat in religious debate, I dunno...
Awesome GBM. You just dismantled the entire foundation of Christianity in 1268 words. Of course, if Jesus is God, and he knows he is divine, then there is NO sacrifice. It seems so damn obvious, I can't believe I didn't think of it myself! Sure it looks impressive, dying on the cross like that, but it's nothing more than a propaganda exercise. How can you die if you're God? You can't, and if you are aware that you are God (as Jesus claimed to be) then you know you're not making any kind of sacrifice.
Your logic is flawless and the funniest thing in this thread is seeing the assembled ranks of Christians trying to sidestep it with specious arguments. The ironic thing is that they have been hoisted by their own petard - the divinity of Jesus, which is something they, and only they, believe in.
Gingerbread Man on 19/9/2006 at 02:52
I don't know if you're being sarcastic or not :(
SD on 19/9/2006 at 02:59
That's just part of my enduring charm :D
ps i was being serious
Gingerbread Man on 19/9/2006 at 03:24
Well, I didn't mean it as an attack or anything. Honestly, I don't have enough motivation or emotional connectedness to the subject to have any kind of visceral opinion about religion, good or bad. To me it's as personally irrelevant as gays in the military or whether or not Pluto is a planet. It's all very interesting to talk about, but at the end of the day it doesn't matter to me.
ercles on 19/9/2006 at 04:27
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
the funniest thing in this thread is seeing the assembled ranks of Christians trying to sidestep it with specious arguments.
No more so than the likes of you who foam at the mouth at the chance to broadside someone's faith. I, for the record, am not a Christian, and I do believe that GBM's logic isn't exactly flawless
Scots Taffer on 19/9/2006 at 04:43
That's not magic happening in your pants.
Agent Monkeysee on 19/9/2006 at 04:48
Quote Posted by fett
AM - that's the reason the western church is so fucked up and running around with it's head up it's ass. They think Jesus was a Baptist from Dallas. He was a Jew from Jerusalem. The Bible is Hebrew. Judaism is the cradle in which Christianity was nursed. After long, agonizing consideration, I've determined that the church has totally lost the plot somewhere along the way...
Well yeah you'll get no argument from me on that one.
