Jenesis on 18/9/2006 at 22:35

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This reminds me of a chap called Vaughan Roberts, who runs (http://www.stebbes.org.uk/) a church in Oxford. A while back he was told off by a more senior Church of England priest for handing out Christian literature near a mosque. The guy was complaining that he might damage Christian-Muslim relations. A large part of the Church of England and, it would seem, the RC Church, as well as others have, in choosing between a) saving the lost as Jesus commanded, and b) being politically correct and living a quiet life, plumped for option b), which is a detestable state of affairs.

Epos Nix on 18/9/2006 at 22:59

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For a good time try reading up on Buddhism if you aren't In The Know and try applying Buddhist beliefs and teachings to Jesus' words and existence. This will require you to suspend belief in an all-powerful God for a bit and instead attribute Jesus' Godhood to that of a not-quite-omnipotent god, as Buddhists don't believe in an Almighty, however, once you clear that hurdle I think you'll see the teachings between these two gurus are so close they might as well be one.

To kickstart the mayhem I suggest checking out (http://www.santosha.com/index.asp?PageAction=Custom&ID=40) the Buddhist Wheel of Life which illustrates the Buddhist interpretation of reincarnation quite well.

Rug Burn Junky on 18/9/2006 at 23:44

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Now that I've actually bothered to read your post in full, you deserve a nice, hale and hearty: FUCK YOU.

Seriously, you think it's "detestable" that members of the church don't antagonize members of other religions for not believing the same as you do, and further patronize them by calling them "lost?"

Well, if that's the case, I have every right to antagonize you for being a poor misguided superstitious twat, don't I? In which case, I think it's "detestable" that more atheists don't tell you to go fuck yourself.

Often.

Preferably on the way to your house of worship.

Gingerbread Man on 19/9/2006 at 00:51

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Kind of in a similar vein, and maybe this is an Old Hat in religious debate, I dunno...

If Jesus was divine (in whole or in part), then wasn't his sacrifice meaningless or at least greatly diminished? Surely the magnitude of a sacrifice is proportional to the value place on that which is sacrificed by the person who sacrifices it.

And since, in other parts of the Bible, Jesus goes around saying things like "he who believes in me, though he die shall yet live" and the whole Afterlife idea, and also visibly demonstrating the fact that death is not irreversible thanks to God (Lazarus, I don't know if there were others), it's fair to postulate that the death and resurrection of Jesus was more of a demonstration than a sacrifice.

Certainly in the "I am the resurrection and the life" etc it's clear that these are words of faith and promises of "everything's going to be fine no matter what", but the Lazarus stuff there's a definite message that those beloved of God need not fear death, because death can be impermanent and in fact reversed.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that if one begins with the assumption that Jesus was in fact divine, then his afterlife in Heaven beneath the smiles of God with all the joy and peace Heaven brings is assured. Assuming of course that his resurrection isn't assured anyway. And my understanding of the teachings suggests that one of the fundamental underpinnings of it all revolves around the idea that no matter how shitty things are now, no matter what trials and tribulations you endure, everything will be great and worth it when you show up in Heaven and discover that yes there really is a wonderful reward for those who, despite adversity, managed to stay true to God's way as imparted through the sermons of his avatar Jesus... And of course who could be more expected to know, understand, and follow God's way as imparted through the sermons of his avatar Jesus than the avatar Jesus himself?

Again, I'm still assuming for the discussion that it is a fact that Jesus was, in whatever way, divine.

My point ends up being something along these lines: If the average, all-too-human Christian is told that suffering is to be borne bravely and death is not to be feared as it all ends with peace and happiness and fulfillment the likes of which no person can truly understand until they experience it in Heaven, and if Jesus as Christ is even more assured of this than anyone else due to either his divine status or his perfect understanding and adherence to God's way, then there was no sacrifice on the cross. What happened on the cross was just the first part of a demonstration, the second part obviously being the resurrection thereafter.

In fact, even if Jesus was NOT divine in any way and was simply a man who understood God's way and lived by it and tried to get everyone else to live by it, there is still very little of worth in his sacrifice...

Here's how I try to look at it, sort of:

Suppose, for personal moral / ethical reasons, I decide to make a stand against an injustice. Let's say that someone at my place of employment has been fired without compassion, valid reason, and with it resulting in obvious and extreme distress to him and his family. And let's then say I make a big deal about quitting in sympathy, as a demonstration of solidarity, whatever. And everyone is duly impressed because I have a family to support and bills to pay and there are in fact no other jobs at all in the city, and I am seen to be making a huge sacrifice born of compassion and a sense of moral obligation to my fellow man. In fact, let's drag the analogy closer to the Bible by assuming that after I quit the vacancy I leave behind will be filled by the man who was fired and whose cause prompted me to take this action. That seems roughly similar to "Jesus died to wash away the sins of the rest of us" I hope. I don't mean that the exact job I had would be filled by the man who was fired, but just that my leaving will force the employer to rehire the fired dude... let's imagine that not only are there no other jobs in the city, but there are no other workers either -- and the company REQUIRES a full complement of employees. (Yes, I know this is a little strained and thin, but it's difficult)

So I quit. And people are impressed. This is no small thing I've done: There are no other jobs to be found in the city, I have every reason to want to keep my job, to NEED my job.

But see, what I haven't told anyone is one of two things: In the first scenario, I already have a job lined up in another city -- a better job where I will be happier and treated well and paid what I deserve, a job with benefits and a car allowance, and a full dental plan; In the second scenario, let's imagine that instead of an already-secure job in a different city, I know that I will be rehired -- I know this with a CERTAINTY because I am the boss' son or I am the only person in the world who can make head or tail of the job I had been doing.

In neither of those two scenarios have I sacrificed anything. In the first scenario I have demonstrated that it is possible (and desireable) to walk away from a bullshit work environment where injustice and crap happens because there is something better somewhere else. In the second scenario I have demonstrated what? That by being a favourite of the Powers That Be (and let's assume that anyone can get into management's good books because this is also a fundamental tenet of Christianity) I do not have to worry about unemployment because I'll be rehired after I make my point.

Hrhm.

You know, I feel really smart when I start talking, but somewhere along the line I start to think that I'm really not very good with English and that my ideas get horribly fucked up as soon as I try to make them into something that other people can hear or see.



(edit) OH WAIT I REMEMBER

fs, without this bit at the end here, it's just a completely off-topic ramble...

The conclusion that I arrive at is something along the lines of this: If Jesus made no sacrifice, then his status as anything greater than a prophet and teacher is hugely overstated. If Jesus made a sacrifice, then it's a necessary precondition that he was simply a man who gave up that which was most precious in order to demonstrate the power of his faith (and therefore inspire the rest of the world to believe, by the force of his conviction, that it was at least worth giving it a shot to live according to what he suggested)

No, wait, that wasn't quite it either.

What the FUCK? I came in here with a point to make about the sodding POPE for crying out loud. WHAT THE HELL IS WRONG WITH MY BRAIN

I swear I didn't come in here with the intention of starting Yet Another Religious Derail, there used to be a seriously on-point thing here... I really have to start taking notes. :(

oudeis on 19/9/2006 at 01:12

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l forget, which of the apostles wrote about the time jesus leaped over the mount of olives in a single bound?