Judith on 6/1/2016 at 12:51
Quote Posted by van HellSing
(
http://www.economist.com/node/21685201)
Purge of public media. Also, this gem by the foreign affairs minister in light of criticism:
"As if the world, in a Marxist fashion, were destined to evolve only in one direction—towards a new mix of cultures and races, a world of bicyclists and vegetarians."
They're just shamelessly replacing everyone they can with their own puppets. They'd be like African warlords, if they could. And that new foreign minister is really a pinnacle of intelligence: not only his views are archaic or plain silly, but he's proud of it. And he's hostile towards modern world's solutions to problems. Just great.
van HellSing on 7/1/2016 at 18:56
I just give up on trying to understand Manwe's logic.
"The media are probably fascist because I say so, so people spewing actual fascist rhetoric are certainly better!"
Manwe on 8/1/2016 at 15:32
Look it's simple, as I see it, fascists are the ones who oppress the people who silence dissenting opinions and who are opposed to the democratic process. That might not be the dictionary definition of the word, but that's what I meant by it. So replace with whatever word feels more appropriate.
With that said, yes the media in the Western world is guilty of all of this. It is entirely pro-European and pro-US which are not democratic entities. And at least here in France (I can't speak for other countries) it is completely corrupt, being owned by a couple of billionaires working hand in hand with the government to spew propaganda regarding our illegal international wars. They also do the dirty work of the government by massively promoting Le Pen's Front National (giving her a disproportionate amount of coverage and bashing muslims all day long under the guise of "terrorism"), only to act all surprised when she arrives second in the election. They're manipulating public opinion in a perverse, dangerous way and they've been doing it for 40 years.
In the UK look at the coverage of Corbyn's election as leader of the opposition in the Guardian. Do you think that's fair and unbiased journalism? More recently, in the same paper look at the coverage of the conflict between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Do you really think Iran is worse than Saudi Arabia? Do you really think we're doing the right thing siding with the Saudis? Where do you think the ideology of these "terrorists" comes from? Who do you think funded them?
What about coverage of the Syrian crisis? Turns out Putin was right all along to support Assad. I'm still waiting for apologies from all these "leftist" papers. They're only leftist in name, their ideology is as right-wing as can be. When they start condemning Hollande, Sarkozy, BHL, Obama, Bush, Blair, etc... for their actions, and call for their trial for crimes against humanity, then maybe I'll start taking them seriously.
And from what I understand, these guys in Poland were democratically elected, no? They're getting rid of the biased media, no? You're either for democracy, which means that yes, some assholes can be elected, or you're in favor of a dictatorship like China. But you can't have democracy without popular sovereignty. Unless you have the same concept of democracy as the EU technocrats: "Sure you're in a democracy, here vote yes to this referendum, what's that? You voted no? Here vote again..."
hopper on 11/1/2016 at 12:52
Quote Posted by Manwe
Look it's simple, as I see it
Ain't that the truth, bro.
Tony_Tarantula on 30/3/2016 at 13:54
Quote Posted by Manwe
Look it's simple, as I see it, fascists are the ones who oppress the people who silence dissenting opinions and who are opposed to the democratic process. That might not be the dictionary definition of the word, but that's what I meant by it. So replace with whatever word feels more appropriate.
With that said, yes the media in the Western world is guilty of all of this. It is entirely pro-European and pro-US which are not democratic entities. And at least here in France (I can't speak for other countries) it is completely corrupt, being owned by a couple of billionaires working hand in hand with the government to spew propaganda regarding our illegal international wars. They also do the dirty work of the government by massively promoting Le Pen's Front National (giving her a disproportionate amount of coverage and bashing muslims all day long under the guise of "terrorism"), only to act all surprised when she arrives second in the election. They're manipulating public opinion in a perverse, dangerous way and they've been doing it for 40 years.
In the UK look at the coverage of Corbyn's election as leader of the opposition in the Guardian. Do you think that's fair and unbiased journalism? More recently, in the same paper look at the coverage of the conflict between Saudi Arabia and Iran. Do you really think Iran is worse than Saudi Arabia? Do you really think we're doing the right thing siding with the Saudis? Where do you think the ideology of these "terrorists" comes from? Who do you think funded them?
What about coverage of the Syrian crisis? Turns out Putin was right all along to support Assad. I'm still waiting for apologies from all these "leftist" papers. They're only leftist in name, their ideology is as right-wing as can be. When they start condemning Hollande, Sarkozy, BHL, Obama, Bush, Blair, etc... for their actions, and call for their trial for crimes against humanity, then maybe I'll start taking them seriously.
And from what I understand, these guys in Poland were democratically elected, no? They're getting rid of the biased media, no? You're either for democracy, which means that yes, some assholes can be elected, or you're in favor of a dictatorship like China. But you can't have democracy without popular sovereignty. Unless you have the same concept of democracy as the EU technocrats: "Sure you're in a democracy, here vote yes to this referendum, what's that? You voted no? Here vote again..."
Interesting perspective. I had an interesting conversation when I was in Paris a few weeks ago with a fellow business school alumni about the entire Trump issue. The way I explained it to him was "You know all the lies and misinformation both from and about Marie's campaign? What makes you think it's any different with the US media? That somewhat got the point across.
Also good point on Saudi Arabia and Iran. I've somewhat found that a politician's willingness to slay such foreign policy "Holy Cows" like Israel, Saudi Arabi, and Turkey....and to call out the level of bullshit and rationalization it takes to support these countries while claiming the moral high ground, is a pretty good litmus test for who is bought and paid for.
I'll also admit that I'm a huge fan of Nigel Farage's speeches. I could do a bit less with his Xenophobie but his criticisms of EU corruption and incompetence are both spot on and highly entertaining.
Why bring up Nigel Farage? Because he in turn has brought up what I think is one of the biggest issues in the EU: the European Parliament's suppression of the Democratic process across the EU. They actively subverted the will of voters in Greece and Italy, and I have heard some semi-credible information to the effect that they sabotaged the Scottish vote to exit the UK and intend to do the same with the Brexit. They're worried that a single country leaving will spark off a contagion effect across Europe and lead to a collapse of the EU..and consequently them losing all their cushy jobs.
Also Manwe I think the entire "left ring" and "right wing" thing is entirely useless in this day and age. The issue isn't ideological bias or extremish in government, but a
Corruption bias. It's becoming readily apparent that huge swaths of media and government aren't doing what they do out of any ideology but because they're bought and paid for to take those positions. That's not something you fight by calling them "leftists" or "rightists", it's something where borrowing Trump and Farage's language and calling them out directly on corruption and stupidity is the best way to attack the issue.
Quote:
Look I'm French, I observe other people's behavior. The younger they are, the more Americanized they are. They all dream of America, all they care about and talk about are American TV shows, American Movies, or American celebrities. It's gotten to the point where American words and terms, such as "swag", "bitch", "dead", "life", "fake", "post", "black", etc... have become commonly used. French culture or the French language are constantly derided and frowned upon. The more "American" you act, the more hip, or cool you are. Nobody knows or cares about French history anymore. Here patriotism is the worst insult you can throw at someone. Worse than that young people are ashamed of being French. It's a fucking disaster really, we're a schizophrenic people without a nation anymore.
Also it's not any different in America. The younger generation is almost completely ignorant of their own country's history, how it's government operates, or even in how to construct a coherent sentence judging by the papers that one of my acquaintances at a major university has let me seen pieces of. If you're the least bit patriotic you're derided as a "bigoted" or a "redneck" or a "right wing extremist".
Tony_Tarantula on 30/3/2016 at 14:05
Also worth it's own post I believe.
For me one of the biggest takeaways of the past few weeks has been that What the European situation looks like depends greatly depending on your perspective. The EU and other public sector/NGO officials that my group met with were, without exception, aggressively bullish with the view they pushed. According to all of them absolutely nothing troubling is going on, the future is completely bright, the migrant crisis is just a bump in the road, and Europe is fundamentally fiscally stable. They weren't particularly able to defend it which leads me to believe that there's a lot of wishful thinking bias (those forecasts are the best-case scenario for those individual's futures) involved mixed in with a hint of bullshit and groupthink.
Notable the private sector business leaders were much less positive, particularly in France. One of the most interesting comments I heard was that "Paris is becoming a Disneyland for rich Chinese and Arabs". I was also surprised at how harsh the reguulatory and tax climate actually is and to learn that if you own a business you get charged back taxes for the entire lifetime of the business once you pay yourself above a certain threshold(can any of our Frenchy members confirm?) . Germans were a little more positive, but I think a lot of that had to do with us spending a lot of time around management consultants and luxury vehicle companies.
One thing that's abundantly clear is that, just as in the US, there is an enormous dissonance between the "elite" and everyone else. Those working in the public sector (to include those working close enough to it to benefit from the money trough) are doing very well. To a lesser extent those servicing the needs of the extremely wealthy are doing well. Everyone else is hurting. People literally live in two different worlds.
242 on 30/3/2016 at 14:43
Quote:
One thing that's abundantly clear is that, just as in the US, there is an enormous dissonance between the "elite" and everyone else.
So.... you really should have lived in an anti-US/EU country. Any of them. To compare it for himself. And to love what you have. As Depardieu has done already.
Tony_Tarantula on 30/3/2016 at 14:58
Quote Posted by 242
So.... you really should have lived in an anti-US/EU country. Any of them. To compare it for himself. And to love what you have. As Depardieu has done already.
As it so happens I have spent time living in countries that fall outside the US/EU, and am aware that they have much worse issues.
That's why these trends concern me. They're worryingly reminiscent of dynamics that exist in many emerging countries and keep the poor in those countries permanently impoverished.
