Judith on 14/12/2015 at 10:16
Quote:
not to brag but that's one reason I've been kinda proud of Poland - it really has been booming after we kthxbai-ed USSR, and joining EU has definitely been a big boost as well.
Well, not quite. I mean, there are some changes to be sure, but when you take a look at the people in the streets and in shops, the way they dress, behave, what they say... Every time I leave the house I feel like I've been transported back to 1995. There are tons of poor people in supermarkets, regardless of the hour (I'm a freelancer so I can check that anytime). Administrative staff is mean and drunk with power, at any level (local or governmental), they always make you feel helpless, and anything you need to do, can't be done, and surely not in a prompt manner. Town's officials are accepting projects that are outdated in the design phase (latest tram station in Lodz screams 1990s, and supposedly it was designed by a young architect). It's 2015, and the municipal architect says the car traffic is an absolute priority... So, anyone who saw something like (
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1701976/) Urbanized is more qualified to talk abut traffic planning than him.
All in all, a few EU or tax-funded roads or highways don't mean real change. The key people who could change something here were acting alone or were too afraid to do something. The rest is afraid of the change - that would mean they actually have to start learning something new, or maybe their job would become obsolete, so they do everything to maintain the status quo from the 90s. What we see on the political scene today is a more radical manifestation of what's been here for years.
I don't think I'm especially progressive or modern with my views - I thought there are many people here who speak at least one foreign language, have internet access and are interested in modern world, and how other countries cope with their social, economical or infrastructural problems - and would like to see that modern approach here as well. Latest elections showed that there's about 3,9% of such people here, so not much. On that note, my decade-long internal emigration wasn't such a bad idea ;)
bukary on 14/12/2015 at 10:49
Quote Posted by Judith
Every time I leave the house I feel like I've been transported back to 1995. There are tons of poor people in supermarkets, regardless of the hour (I'm a freelancer so I can check that anytime)
Well, it's completely different in the place where I live (Zakopane). Perahaps it depends on... many factors. Some towns and cities have come a long way since 1995.
As for PiS... some of their voters were (obviously) deceived by the campaign declarations and (mostly) tired with the previous government. Let's hope they will lose the next elections. There are too many people in Poland not happy with what they do to let them rule longer. But I think that we are far, far away from any kind of dictatorship or "democracy" in Putin's style. Poles (most of us) are not good subjects of Fromm's social theories. We love freedom and we will not allow anyone to take it from us again.
Kurhhan on 14/12/2015 at 11:47
Quote Posted by bukary
There are too many people in Poland not happy with what they do to let them rule longer.
TV propaganda deceive you.
bukary on 14/12/2015 at 12:08
Quote Posted by Kurhhan
TV propaganda deceive you.
I do not watch TV. Any more aces up your sleeve?
Kurhhan on 14/12/2015 at 12:27
Your family and 3 friends are not representative group.
PIS + Kukiz still have overwhelming support, so do not present to foreign friends situation like here are some many unhappy people that "do not let them rule longer".
bukary on 14/12/2015 at 12:36
Quote Posted by Kurhhan
Hmm, Zakopane, checkmate.
You mean... no prophet is accepted in his own country? :P Would you care to elaborate?
Quote Posted by Kurhhan
Your family and 3 friends are not representative group.
Make up your mind.
TV (or media) is not a reliable source of opinion or information, you say. (Like we don't know that.) On the other hand, you claim that interacting with people is also deceiving.
Sooo... perhaps I should ask your confessor what I am supposed to think? (Because having your own opinion is not a very popular thing among the memebers of PiS party: it's the swarm queen that instruct the ignorants what to say every morning.)
Quote:
PIS + Kukiz still have overwhelming support, so do not present to foreign friends situation like here are some many unhappy people that "do not let them rule longer".
Why would you call that an "overwhelming support"?
I was voting against PiS and against former government party (PO). Many of the people that I know voted for PiS (as you noticed, I live in Zakopane, and Podhale is a very conservative region). Right now, most of them are disappointed. "That's not what I was expecting", I hear all the time. They wanted (as always) some positive changes and not pissing all over the constitution. They thought (thanks to the masterminds of the political campaign) that PiS has changed since 2006. And what they got is more of the same. Hence my word "deceived".
I knew what to expect from PiS: "It's our fucking turn!" They follow PO's (former government) footseps in many ways, but they are not as subtle as previous thieves in white gloves (is that also English idiom?), so... if the law is standing in our way, fuck the law! Of course, thay have their mouth full of pompous words, but it's just rhetoric to cover up other intentions. In short, they are not so different from previous tricksters. ;) And I think they will end the same.
And all of that is a common knowledge... Do you believe in pure intentions of these politicians? It's just a matter of taste. All of them lie, although not all of them understand the boundries of lie. I am no 19th century romantic, so I can accept that. As long as they do not step on my toe.
Kurhhan on 14/12/2015 at 13:19
Quote Posted by bukary
Make up your mind.
TV (or media) is not a reliable source of opinion or information, you say. (Like we don't know that.)
and then :
Quote Posted by bukary
(Because having your own opinion is not a very popular thing among the memebers of PiS party: it's the swarm queen that instruct the ignorants what to say every morning.)
So, you make up your mind "unhappy" man. You repeat media garbage.
Quote Posted by bukary
Right now, most of them are disappointed. "That's not what I was expecting", I hear all the time. They wanted (as always) some positive changes and not pissing all over the constitution.
Yep, you and your friends are overwhelmed by media. Disagreements on the tribunal treat as an overall evil and ignore the good things. What things ? My
English is not too good to write more complex issues. So far everything is on right track.
"That's not what I was expecting", yeah they expected Sweden in 1,5 month.
Ok, this is all for me now, this political stuff don't connects good with my English. So my foreign friends, for now, it's not bad here with PIS+Kukiz like some always unhappy guys try to claim. So far everything is on right track. How this end, we will see.
Cheers, Kurhhan.
bukary on 14/12/2015 at 13:51
Quote:
Disagreements on the tribunal treat as an overall evil and ignore the good things
If you don't like the constitution, be my guest and change it (within the boundries of law). If you do not have enough support from the society (voters) to change the constitution, do not try to change it by breaking it.
Is that so hard to understand?
PiS did not receive as many votes as you claim. The nation did not give them the permission to change the constitution. They simply do not have the required majority in the parliment. There's no "overwhelming" support that would allow for some major system changes, so they try to gain the right to do what they want by ignoring the law and accusing the former government of doing just that.
You might think that it will gain them more support. That's not what I experience. So... you can dream about the "overwhelming support" or wail about the propaganda or media garbage as much as you want. We'll see if the nation agrees in the next elections.
And... BTW, I am really curious about these "good things" that PiS has done.
Quote:
So my foreign friends, for now, it's not bad here with PIS+Kukiz like some always unhappy guys try to claim.
Can I have "always unhappy" label, please? After 14 years of spreading unhappines all over TTLG... :angel:
:rolleyes:
Melan on 14/12/2015 at 14:00
Ultimately, beyond the usual political horse race, one of the root causes the voters are punishing establishment parties is that the advantages and disadvantages of transition have been shared very unequally in the last 25 years. Urban elite groups in large cities have reaped the benefits, while the social and geographic peripheries have lost out, and have no realistic hope of catching up to a desirable "European" level of development and standards of living. That's not just true in post-socialist countries, since we live in an era of super-concentrations where metropolitan areas emerge as the big winners, and smaller cities as well as rural areas are left behind, but it is a very pressing concern in Central and Eastern Europe. Even in a relatively successful country like Poland, the divisions between "Poland A" and "Poland B" are striking. In Hungary, the downfall of the elite was even more severe due to their catastrophic mismanagement of the economy and the abandonment of the areas outside the capital - the symptoms are different in each country, but the root causes are similar. Dissatisfaction with one's lot, alienation, a feeling of not being represented, etc.
It is easy to write off disappointed people as misinformed, ignorant or plain evil (as it goes in various newspapers), but the voters have legitimate concerns that were not being addressed, and exercised their right to choose a different group of crooks to represent them. Whether the new government can and will change things for the better is another question - maybe they will, maybe not. I have no great illusions. But there is a deep social discontent lurking within people, and until it is somehow addressed, we will see more challenges to the political consensus. In Hungary, there was a young politician in 1989, who coined the slogan "To Europe, but all of us!" He was called a populist and a naive dreamer by the various experts of the time, and died shortly afterwards under suspicious circumstances (after calling for the accountability of the former secret service apparatus), but I think he was onto something.
Kurhhan on 14/12/2015 at 14:26
Yeah bukary go on, cry further, complain on your country in the foreign forum. Maybe you feel better.
And tribunal was always political. Frightened elite groups just deceived you, that this is a big, evil deal now.
