Please don't smoke... - by Strangeblue
SD on 15/7/2006 at 23:35
Quote Posted by theBlackman
The bullshit about not being able to work is just that. Many barmaids, waiters, and other such smoke, will, have and will continue to work in such an environment.
So, I guess we should re-allow smoking in other places then, since we live in this magical happy fantasy world where people can pick and choose their place of work at whim. I guess I'm daydreaming the fact that there are 7 million people unemployed in the US alone.
theBlackman on 15/7/2006 at 23:43
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
So, I guess we should re-allow smoking in other places then, since we live in this magical happy fantasy world where people can pick and choose their place of work at whim. I guess I'm daydreaming the fact that there are 7 million people unemployed in the US alone.
We can choose where to work. As for the 7 million, you ignore the reason they may be unemployed which is they choose not to work. "This job is below my skill level. This job is below my dignity, etc."
I mean no disrespect for any of them, but for many that is true. There is work for every fricken one of them, if they choose to work. And not pick and choose a particular job.
I could go to work tomorrow in any one of a dozen or more occupations, or even start my own. They wouldn't pay me 40,000 dollars a year, but they would sure as shit bring me a living income. That is a living income with no extravagant extras.
Your argument, as usually is a diversionary tactic and avoids the issue. We make choices, for good or ill. If you
must work, you better learn to take work and not be picky about it.
You don't have to make a lifetime commitment to a particular "line" of labor, but you damn well need to commit to getting off your ass and working, even if it's picking up scrap metal and aluminum cans to recycle.
SubJeff on 15/7/2006 at 23:47
Quote Posted by theBlackman
The idiocy of your constantly diverting a discussion to a new area (rather attempting to when it gets too heated) is amusing.
To my knowledge I mentioned none of the crap you are bringing up. I said naught about treatment
I'm not trying to divert it and I never said that you mentioned any of this.
I was just asking. Why? Because you keep saying, and I quote, "If you don't like something, then avoid it
or live with the fact that YOU put yourself in that place and time."
I was just wondering what your opinion on the issue of treatment of self-inflicted conditions was seeing as you keep reeling out this "live with your choices" line. Is it so bad to ask?
The point about passive smoking is that you DON'T choose to put yourself in that place at that time. Often you end up in situtations where you are inhaling smoke and you never planned it, and might even have tried to avoid it. Why should one person's choice of bar be restricted because he will be risking his health?
And I wholheartedly agree with you, tBM, that people should get off their asses and work, and that if it means stacking shelves or sweeping streets there is more dignity in that than saying "that is beneath me" whilst living off the state. But if you must instist on that you must be able to see that someone going out to work has the right to do that without facing unneccessary risks to their health. It's like someone working in chemical factory - there are health and safety laws and rules that employers must stick to (in ANY setting in fact). Not exposing workers to carginogens seems pretty fair to me.
theBlackman on 16/7/2006 at 00:08
Quote Posted by Subjective Effect
The point about passive smoking is that you DON'T choose to put yourself in that place at that time. Often you end up in situtations where you are inhaling smoke and you never planned it, and might even have tried to avoid it. Why should one person's choice of bar be restricted because he will be risking his health?
I agree that this situation exists and, unfortunately the "offenders" are in blissful ignorance about the presence of others, or just don't give a damn. It is a common condition, no consideration for others.
As to the "[...]treatment of self inflicted conditions..." I am not sure what you mean. Give me a referrence in context.
If I break a leg because I slip on a wet floor about which I was clearly warned, or if I burn my mouth because the coffee is too hot. I blame no one but myself, and accept the blame, and resultant consequences.
I live with the result of my own stupidity, or action, and bear the cost, emotional, physical and monetary of my own failures.
SubJeff on 16/7/2006 at 00:16
Wait. You are saying that smokers are often "inconsiderate" but at the same time that everyone else should put up with it because we made a choice to be in the same space as them
Quote:
If I break a leg because I slip on a wet floor about which I was clearly warned... I blame no one but myself, and accept the blame, and resultant consequences.
Does that mean you just suffer in silence or do you seek medical treatment? By "treatment of self-inflicted conditions" I mean, for example, lifelong smokers with lung cancer or chronic airways disease seeking medical treatment. You could argue that they brought the illnesses on themselves, and some would argue that because of that they either pay for the full cost of treatment themselves or tough it out. It's not too dissimilar from your idea that you shouldn't whine about being beaten up if you go into "the bars", though you haven't actually said what should happen regarding the law and so on.
theBlackman on 16/7/2006 at 00:28
I said that EVERYBODY is inconsiderate. I agreed that the situation exists. I said nothing about your REMAINING there to be abused nor that you volunteered to be there.
Some situations, such as this, are a fact of life like rain at a picnic, and are not to be confused with situations over which you have control, which is what the discussion was about.
Unless and until you and the rest of the ranters can convince the "people" as a whole to show consideration to one another, (be your brothers keeper) things like that will happen.
But has little to do with the tenor of the discussion, which is the option of choice when such freedom exists. Your premise is that all public places and business should defer to your choice. Mine is the same as Slyfoxx, the owner should make the rules. If the non-smokers choose to enter a smokey room, so be it. If the owner is hurt by the lack of business he might change the rules, then it is MY CHOICE, as a smoker, to abide by them or go elsewhere
I would seek treatment for any illness or injury that I needed. You question is a bit on the "What kinda bullshit question is that?"
It matters not what a person's ailment is, any one who ignores the need for treatment is an idiot. If they choose no treatment, as do Christian Scientists, or if they choose to go to the best hospital or witch doctor in thier area, that's thier business.
Addendum:
If it pains you so much, buy a keg, and you and your mates can drink in your own living room. A Pub is a PUBLIC PLACE, you are not obligated to go there, to drink there, or to stay there. If you do so without duress, you HAVE NO RIGHT TO COMPLAIN. YOU CHOOSE TO DO SO.
TheGreatGodPan on 16/7/2006 at 01:03
If it's so impossible to get a job, why are so many illegals coming over? Don't tell me it's to wait tables (although a significant number are in restaurants).
With regards to rights, Stronts, you and I have a very different conception of them. I think a bar/restaurant is the property of the owner and it is their say what is and is not permitted. Just as I don't have any "right" to tell you what to do in your house, you don't have any "right" to tell the owner what goes on at his place. Even if every other restaurant is closed, your fridge is cleaned out and your stomach is groaning, nobody else is obligated to accomodate you. As it happens, there are places where the owners of their own free will prohibit smoking, because they value the appreciation of people who dislike smoke more than the disgruntlement of smokers. Smokers aren't special enough to insist that their "right" to smoke in such a place be upheld against the wishes of others any more than anybody else has the "right" to demand the reverse in a different place.
SlyFoxx on 16/7/2006 at 01:12
TGGP just hit one outta the park.
SD on 16/7/2006 at 01:21
Quote Posted by TheGreatGodPan
If it's so impossible to get a job, why are so many illegals coming over?
:mad:
Quote:
With regards to rights, Stronts, you and I have a very different conception of them. I think a bar/restaurant is the property of the owner and it is their say what is and is not permitted.
I understand your viewpoint, it's the typical
EBIL STATE CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO stance. Unlike you, I believe that a person who provides a
public service has a basic duty of care to the public, and that includes the right of the public to not have carcinogenic chemicals foisted upon them.
Quote:
Just as I don't have any "right" to tell you what to do in your house, you don't have any "right" to tell the owner what goes on at his place.
So do you not believe bars should also meet a basic level of hygiene? Provide basic toilet facilities? Where do you draw the line between "I can do whatever I want with my business" and "Okay that's too much"?
I also suggest you look at the role the government plays in our society. You'll find that they have a whole host of "rights" to tell people what they can and cannot do.
Quote Posted by SlyFoxx
TGGP just hit one outta the park.
Not really. He just repeated the same old well-worn and discredited arguments.
