BlackCapedManX on 11/11/2007 at 22:45
Quote Posted by DaveW
The only moden weapon limited to burst fire in major military forces is the M16 - and that, by all counts, is a horrible design.
I'm going to call a quick bullshit on this statement. The M16 was originally a fully automatic weapon, but statistical analysis from the Vietnam war showed that troops would fire innacurately and wildly through entire clips, without hitting a single target. I can't guaruntee its validity, but I've heard it quoted that the average number of shots fired to verified kills was 30,000!
My main technical beef with the DX assault rifle is how stupidly powerless it is. It's more like an automatic BB gun than a rifle (Tremors 3 anyone?). If it's actually firing 7.62 Nato rounds, by all accounts it should be capable of delivering one shot kills through body armor at extended range (or in DX terms, on par with the Sniper Rifle, as the 7.62 is only slightly less powerful than 30.06.)
That being said, (and relating to realistic expectations of rifles) automatic, or even 5-shot burst is excessive. Most tactical weapons teams double-tap, because two rounds is typically lethal or enough to incapacitate. While I don't disagree that military guns should have automatic fire, I think in the hands of a skillful operator it's highly unnecessary (especially the likes of JC, who presumably is trained in dealing with urban hostile/non-hostile situations, where shot placement and controlled fire is even more of a serious concern, it's not like DX takes place on a battlefield.)
DaveW on 12/11/2007 at 00:46
Quote:
I'm going to call a quick bullshit on this statement. The M16 was originally a fully automatic weapon, but statistical analysis from the Vietnam war showed that troops would fire innacurately and wildly through entire clips, without hitting a single target. I can't guaruntee its validity, but I've heard it quoted that the average number of shots fired to verified kills was 30,000!
Plenty of militaries (in fact, almost all) use fully automatic weapons, not ones
limited to burst fire. That greatly reduces it's ability to use in CQB, hence why the US Military also uses the M4 (shorter, fully automatic - far better for CQB).
Quote:
That being said, (and relating to realistic expectations of rifles) automatic, or even 5-shot burst is excessive. Most tactical weapons teams double-tap, because two rounds is typically lethal or enough to incapacitate. While I don't disagree that military guns should have automatic fire, I think in the hands of a skillful operator it's highly unnecessary (especially the likes of JC, who presumably is trained in dealing with urban hostile/non-hostile situations, where shot placement and controlled fire is even more of a serious concern, it's not like DX takes place on a battlefield.)
The problem this they will not always be in the hands of a skilled operator. Yes, JC is, but the same gun is used
everywhere. And even if they are skilled operators, in CQB fully automatic is far more useful - especially against returning automatic fire.
BlackCapedManX on 12/11/2007 at 03:27
But on the other hand, 7.62 produces absurd recoil, also inhibiting ones ability to use such a weapon is CQB. A fully automatic Submachine gun or small caliber rifle makes more sense. This is why many militaries and tactical units are making the move toward proprietary rounds (5.7 FN and 4.9 HK rounds) as less powerful but more controllable rounds that are still lethal in CQB ranges. However, fully automatic rifles are widly uncontrolable, especially in 7.62(nato) configuration.
DaveW on 12/11/2007 at 10:54
So then, I take it the most popular assault rifle is not 7.62mm, nor fully automatic?
What is the most popular assault rifle, by the way?
catbarf on 12/11/2007 at 20:32
Quote Posted by DaveW
So then, I take it the most popular assault rifle is not 7.62mm, nor fully automatic?
What is the most popular assault rifle, by the way?
Kalashnikov for the win. My personal favorite... Although nothing beats the Mac-10 for sheer bulletwall.
heywood on 13/11/2007 at 01:12
A fully automatic hand carried weapon makes no sense. Recoil is certainly an issue, but ammo consumption is the main problem. If your only experience with automatic weapons is in video games, you have no idea how quickly you can shoot through a clip in full auto. AK-47s and AK-74s will go through a 30 round clip in about 3s. The fully auto versions of the M16 will exhaust a 30 round clip in closer to 2s. Ditto for an Uzi-type SMG. The only way to realistically use these weapons in full auto mode is to tap out short bursts, which is why a metered burst firing mode is a good idea.
By the way, the M16 fires 5.56mm (.223) rounds, not 7.62mm rounds. 7.62mm is primarily a sniper round these days, at least among credible military forces.
Emerald Wolf on 13/11/2007 at 12:17
Getting back to the world of DeusEx 1 for a while:
Is it just me or does putting a laser-sight or scope onto the mini-crossbow make absolutely no differance to the weapons accuracy at all?
DX-455 on 13/11/2007 at 18:22
Quote Posted by BlackCapedManX
I'm going to call a quick bullshit on this statement. The M16 was originally a fully automatic weapon, but statistical analysis from the Vietnam war showed that troops would fire innacurately and wildly through entire clips, without hitting a single target. I can't guaruntee its validity, but I've heard it quoted that the average number of shots fired to verified kills was 30,000!
My main technical beef with the DX assault rifle is how stupidly powerless it is. It's more like an automatic BB gun than a rifle (Tremors 3 anyone?). If it's actually firing 7.62 Nato rounds, by all accounts it should be capable of delivering one shot kills through body armor at extended range (or in DX terms, on par with the Sniper Rifle, as the 7.62 is only slightly less powerful than 30.06.)
That being said, (and relating to realistic expectations of rifles) automatic, or even 5-shot burst is excessive. Most tactical weapons teams double-tap, because two rounds is typically lethal or enough to incapacitate. While I don't disagree that military guns should have automatic fire, I think in the hands of a skillful operator it's highly unnecessary (especially the likes of JC, who presumably is trained in dealing with urban hostile/non-hostile situations, where shot placement and controlled fire is even more of a serious concern, it's not like DX takes place on a battlefield.)
I just talked to my father...he is a Vietnam War vet. He was infantry, and carried an M-16(hell, he still has it). He said it was most commonly used 'in the bush' as a semi-automatic weapon. Ammo was scarce-ish most of the time, and the damn thing was so accurate and powerful in semi mode there was no need to go into full-auto. It fires as fast as you can pull the trigger and it is RARE that that is insufficient.
D'Juhn Keep on 14/11/2007 at 07:54
Quote Posted by Emerald Wolf
Getting back to the world of DeusEx 1 for a while:
Is it just me or does putting a laser-sight or scope onto the mini-crossbow make absolutely no differance to the weapons accuracy at all?
If you put a Laser Mod on any gun and turn it on the shots go where the laser sight is sighted, making it 100% accurate independently of its Accuracy rating. If you then add a Scope Mod the Laser Mod is nullified completely, making you reliant on the Accuracy rating. Neither Laser nor Scope affects the Accuracy in any way.
DaveW on 14/11/2007 at 08:10
Quote Posted by heywood
A fully automatic hand carried weapon makes no sense. Recoil is certainly an issue, but ammo consumption is the main problem. If your only experience with automatic weapons is in video games, you have no idea how quickly you can shoot through a clip in full auto. AK-47s and AK-74s will go through a 30 round clip in about 3s. The fully auto versions of the M16 will exhaust a 30 round clip in closer to 2s. Ditto for an Uzi-type SMG. The only way to realistically use these weapons in full auto mode is to tap out short bursts, which is why a metered burst firing mode is a good idea.
By the way, the M16 fires 5.56mm (.223) rounds, not 7.62mm rounds. 7.62mm is primarily a sniper round these days, at least among credible military forces.
Although, suprisingly, the most commonly used assault rifle around the world is fully automatic in 7.62mm! Also the good thing about fully automatic is that it's there if you need it.
