242 on 22/8/2008 at 15:32
Quote Posted by dreamcatcher
I believe they did have. What's your point, are you telling me that nothing changed in Russia since the times of Stalin's iron fist? Cause I seem to recall that there's been drastic changes once Gorbi opened the floodgates. And your comparison to PRK, now that's stretching it.
My point was that your opinion that outlook from inside is more objective than outlook from outside was flawed, that's it.
Quote Posted by BR796164
By the way, just out of curiosity, how is Gorbachev perceived by common people in Russia these days? From what I understand he's mostly unpopular for what he did and what he did not do during Perestroika times. Please, enlighten me a bit.
Majority of Russians (I believe even overwhelming majority), also imperialists and communists in other post USSR countries generally hate him, at least don't like, others like him. Most of Russians hate him because now they associate USSR with Russia, so thinking that Gorbachev ruined their country and their power.
dreamcatcher on 22/8/2008 at 16:05
Quote Posted by 242
My point was that your opinion that outlook from inside is more objective than outlook from outside was flawed, that's it.
That's quite absurd. You are suggesting that people on the inside are intrinsically incapable of making an objective decision because they are susceptible to internal propaganda, as if protesters and dissidents do not exist, while anyone on the outside is getting objective and infallible truth about the matters they had not experienced firsthand since there's no such thing as western propaganda and yellow journalism.
242 on 22/8/2008 at 16:21
dreamcatcher, I merely pointed that you were incorrectly categorical that person's opinion about his or her life always corresponds with reality.There is many ways to distort the opinion. Irregardless where the person is - inside, or outside.
dreamcatcher on 22/8/2008 at 16:25
Quote Posted by 242
dreamcatcher, I merely pointed that you were incorrectly categorical
Fair enough.
Turtle on 22/8/2008 at 17:01
Well, if there's anything this thread has taught me, it's that Russia is dumb, fanatical and extremely delusional.
Of course that's just judging by its representatives.
d'Spair on 22/8/2008 at 17:59
You know what is astonishing?
As much as SD
knows that Russians poisoned Yuschenko, and Putin killed Politkovskaya, 242
knows that I, as well as the majority of the Russians, support Jirinovskiy. Live and learn, live and learn.
Quote Posted by Volitions Advocate
D'spair I'm not russian and I've never lived there, my experience has been very limited and entirely second hand. But as far as I've been able to tell its not Russias shift to democracy that weakened it, it was the shift to capitalism.
That's right, but they historically go very close to each other.
Quote Posted by Volitions Advocate
The communist party didn't believe in anything but communism. None of them had any system of belief other than hold onto power as long as they could because they knew they were all going to die and as far as they were concerned thats where life ended. I'm not going to debate religion, but I woudln't want somebody like that to rule with an iron fist. If you want that back I suppose thats your choice, but I dont see how it could beneifit anybody... anywhere... ever.
I believe I said nothing about communism and the communists. I never liked communism as the ideology in general. Authoritarianism and communism are different things.
Quote Posted by dreamcatcher
Stop presuming that applying your specific ideas of liberty to a society which developed entirely differently from yours will bring you a clear picture. Ask the people on the ground whether they feel free. Or not, of course. You can just go on pretending that yours are the only people blessed to live in a bastion of freedom.
I think dreamcatcher said it absolutely correctly. I don't think I can add anything to this.
Quote Posted by SD
Yeah, the UK is far from perfect, although it's still infinitely freer than Russia.
I think trying to compare countries and decide which one is 'freer' that another is absolute nonsense. I lived and worked in the States for 4 months and I can surely say, thanks God we don't have some of these 'freedoms' that the Americans enjoy. Though you might probably call USA a 'freer' country compared to Russia.
Quote Posted by SD
When the West starts killing its own citizens and blaming it on the enemy, and when Michael Moore ends up looking like this...
I guess Michael Moore is not an ex-partner of Mr. Berezovskiy, so he is unlikely to get poisoned.
You seem to be a fan of some really weird pictures by the way. :)
It's quite surprising to see such people as SD saying something about Russian imbeciles while judging the situation in Russia from reading US-controlled newspapers, referring to some US-controlled agencies and being
absolutely friggin' sure that all bad things in the world are caused by Russia while having no facts to back his point of view. That's ridiculous.
Quote Posted by BR796164
By the way, just out of curiosity, how is Gorbachev perceived by common people in Russia these days? From what I understand he's mostly unpopular for what he did and what he did not do during Perestroika times. Please, enlighten me a bit.
Exactly. I can't say for everybody of course, but I personally know probably just one or two persons who actually feel sympathy towards him. Some people think that he should be punished for what he did. I personally think that he was too blind to see that the processes he had initiated would ultimately ruin the Soviet Union.
Quote Posted by Turtle
Well, if there's anything this thread has taught me, it's that Russia is dumb, fanatical and extremely delusional.
Of course that's just judging by its representatives.
I think Dave Mustaine said it right:
These are your people Lady Liberty
Pull up your dress today
And tattooed is "property of The USA
A subsidiary of Halliburton"
Suprise!?SD on 22/8/2008 at 18:05
Quote Posted by dreamcatcher
Incidentally you may want to read up on CIA-sponsored assassinations throughout the later part of the 20th century.
Not that I want to excuse assassinations on behalf of the American government, but those actions (and indeed, other similar, such as the overthrow of numerous democratically-elected governments) need to be viewed in context. That context is the Cold War - the battle between freedom and totalitarianism. And while I wouldn't dream for a moment of condoning such behaviours, it's important to recognise that they were ostensibly carried out for the right reasons.
So while modern Russia (and old USSR) brutally assassinating people is entirely in line with their ideals and aims, when democracies do those things, they are compromising their ideals "for the greater good", as a means to a better end.
Koki on 22/8/2008 at 18:09
Quote Posted by SD
So while modern Russia (and old USSR) brutally assassinating people is entirely in line with their ideals and aims, when democracies do those things, they are compromising their ideals "for the greater good", as a means to a better end.
If you want to assume Russia is a democracy.
dreamcatcher on 22/8/2008 at 18:33
Quote Posted by SD
So while modern Russia (and old USSR) brutally assassinating people is entirely in line with their ideals and aims, when democracies do those things, they are compromising their ideals "for the greater good", as a means to a better end.
Absurd, as well as full of obvious bias. What Russian "ideals and aims" do you possess such an intimate knowledge of? Why the quantifier "brutally"? Do western "democratic" regimes assassinate gently and thoughtfully?
Presume for a second that the FSB was involved. Where do you get the idea that people in espionage business have the same if any "ideals" and moral standards that the rest of law-obiding citizens of Russia or any country do? If anything, I would be inclined to assume that to survive in that murky underworld of shady intrigue and ruthless politics, one would have to have a thick hide and lack any mercy or remorse.
By the way, the assassination you keep referring to has never been solved, and while British investigators did suspect Russian involvement, they culled no evidence that murder of Litvinenko had any ties to the Kremlin. And that is even though the assassination was sloppy and left plenty of breadcrumbs behind.
The whole "for the greater good" argument is laughable. you must have realized at your age that there is no such thing as a "good politician". They will do anything and everything in their power to preserve status quo. It's just a matter of whose propaganda machine is more effective in convincing us otherwise.
Quote Posted by Koki
If you want to assume Russia is a democracy.
Yes, they are by definition, though their views may differ from ours.
Quote:
Democracy is a system of government by which political sovereignty is retained by the people and exercised directly by citizens. In modern times it has also been used to refer to a constitutional republic where the people have a voice through their elected representatives.
