242 on 21/8/2008 at 21:59
Quote Posted by Stitch
As lame as it is to put someone on one's ignore list, even worse is to make such information public in the misguided assumption that anyone else gives a shit.
I actually don't care if anyone else gives a shit or not, it was more a message to Mr.d'Spair why I won't argue. And I don't agree that putting a person on one's ignore list is lame, it's just a means to save time and placid mood. If someone is on my ignore list it doesn't mean I pretend I don't see the person's posts and don't do any comments about him/her, it means I don't argue/communicate with the person.
BTW, I'm really very impressed by SD's knowledge of the situation.
catbarf on 21/8/2008 at 23:28
Saakashvili isn't stupid. Do you think he was making a military provocation against Russia? South Ossetia has been ethnically Russian for a long time, but they remained and still remain nothing more than a rebelling state within Georgia. Russia had no right to intervene- it was a foreign invasion with an excuse, and all of it as a demonstration of military power to the West.
SD on 22/8/2008 at 00:29
Quote Posted by d'Spair
I have no idea why, but 242 seems to dislike everything about Russia and especially Russia conducting its internal and foreign policy according to our Russian national interests. That's why you should take his opinions on the matter with a huge grain of salt. He will surely try to convince you that here in Russia we live oppressed by militia, that Putin and Medvedev are tyrants and dictators, that we are not a free society and so on.
You're not a free society. (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_in_the_World_(report)#Central_.26_Eastern_Europe_.26_the_former_Soviet_Union) Freedom House gives Russia a 6 for political rights and 5 for civil liberties, making it "Not Free". (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worldwide_Press_Freedom_Index#Worldwide_Press_Freedom_Index_Ranking) Reporters Without Borders rates Russia 144th out of 169 countries for press freedom - a "difficult situation" and worsening. The Wall Street Journal's (
http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm) Index of Economic Freedom ranks Russia 134th of 157 rated countries, with an economic freedom score of 49.9% making it "repressed".
Whichever way you cut it, Russia is an unfree, authoritarian country where too much power is invested in the state, reporters are intimidated and murdered, people are not at liberty to go about their business and democracy is seriously compromised.
Quote Posted by d'Spair
And that we, of course, are dreaming of conquering Ukraine and toppling president Yuschenko as soon as possible.
Gosh yes, I wonder what can have possibly given people that idea...
Inline Image:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/DannyClein/Random/YushchenkoBeforeAfter.jpgI mean, surely it's just a
coincidence that opponents of Russia have a nasty habit of ingesting too much poison, right?
d'Spair on 22/8/2008 at 01:29
SD, again, you're referring to Freedom House and whatever, and I have been living here for precisely 22 years and know the situation from the inside. I mean, I can also try to discuss the state of democracy in Great Britain, but I will never do that because a) I'm not interested, and b) you live there and you definitely know about it better than me.
I don't think I want to discuss the necessity for democracy in Russia and my personal attitude towards democracy in general (which is mostly negative). But what I know for sure is that I can go on the street and start shouting something like "Putin is a tyrant", and the worst thing that I will face is probably a few dazed stares from the passers by. I also know that if one happens to appear on TV and decides to criticize Russian actions in South Ossetia, he or she won't get suddenly cut by a nicely timed commercial as opposed to what happens in the States. And I also know that if I decide to write an article about Anna Politkovskaya who has been 'murdered by Putin', it will probably not be published just because it's not good to publish texts that are not backed by facts.
And if I suddenly decide to support pro-Western liberals, I will be sure to find some journalists for American or British TV-channels and scream about tyrants and oppressors exclusively in English in front of their cameras. Just because people who are funding such 'liberal' manifestations speak English, and because almost no one in Russia will support me and share my thoughts. It might probably sound surprisingly for you, but most people in Russia do not support liberalism. And they voted for Putin and United Russia exactly because they expected him and his party to rule the country with a strong hand. But that doesn't mean we are not free and we are oppressed. We just want to have a strong power and a strong nation not disrupted by the corrupt politicians supported by the States. And that's exactly what the West doesn't want.
(I hope you will not go and try to prove that the results of our elections were totally shuffled.)
We had our 'democracy' years here in Russia back in the nineties, when the country was almost in ruins thanks to our dear caring democrats. Thank you, that was enough. Now it is time to regain our strength.
Now back to South Ossetia. Let me just ask you a simple question. Imagine that you're traveling around some distant country, walking down the street, and suddenly you're arrested by the local cops, got delivered to the police station and beaten the hell out of you. Just for nothing. And then you know that your embassy isn't going to help you at all. They would just say: "OK, we don't care, go on, kick him more". Would you be shocked?
I'm sure you would. And our Russian citizens who live in South Ossetia would have been shocked not less than you if our military forces would have not responded to the Georgian aggression and would have not fought for their lives. It was our duty to defend our people and stop the slaughter. And that's what we did. To put it briefly.
Scots Taffer on 22/8/2008 at 02:26
Quote Posted by d'Spair
SD, again, you're referring to Freedom House and whatever, and I have been living here for precisely 22 years and know the situation from the inside. I mean, I can also try to discuss the state of democracy in Great Britain, but I will never do that because a) I'm not interested, and b) you live there and you definitely know about it better than me.
I'm not knowledgeable at all in these densely political areas but it is interesting for me to sift through some of the rubble of these discussions, however I've got to say that as a central foundation for the rest of your post this standpoint is inherently flawed.
Living in a country does not somehow grant you complete autonomy to give independent views, in fact it is often the opposite (given the propensity for nationalistic fervour and indoctrination), but it's especially not true of a country that seems to restrict the freedoms of its general population and where the notion of democracy seems to inspire feelings of contempt.
Rogue Keeper on 22/8/2008 at 07:17
Quote Posted by 242
BR796164, I mentioned hypocrisy, I'm wondering did you criticize Russia like you criticize Georgia now, when Chechnya's people wanted independence and were severely punished for their wish, actually much more severely?
Because if you didn't, you're obviously biased.
I was studying Chechnyan affairs extensively in 2003-4 when we had plenty of refugees from there, so I have fairly good picture of what atrocities were going on there in 1st and also 2nd Chechnyan conflict. From Russian troops. And from rebels too.
I don't remember any specific thread dedicated to Chechnya around here though. Iraq was more popular for the west in past several years.
Quote Posted by catbarf
Saakashvili isn't stupid. Do you think he was making a military provocation against Russia? South Ossetia has been ethnically Russian for a long time, but they remained and still remain nothing more than a rebelling state within Georgia. Russia had no right to intervene- it was a foreign invasion with an excuse, and all of it as a demonstration of military power to the West.
Quote Posted by SD
Freedom House gives Russia a 6 for political rights and 5 for civil liberties
Dear listeners, you're tuned in to The Voice of America. And now some Elvis! :thumb:
Freedom House is 80% US gvt. think-tank. Even 1st grade politology students know it. It amazes me that a person who previously criticized imperialist US politics in Iraq and the rest of the world now uses such propagandist tool as Freedom House as objective source.
Jason Moyer on 22/8/2008 at 07:39
Quote Posted by d'Spair
I also know that if one happens to appear on TV and decides to criticize Russian actions in South Ossetia, he or she won't get suddenly cut by a nicely timed commercial as opposed to what happens in the States.
Yeah, we definitely haven't had 5 years of people bitching about Iraq and 8 years of people bitching about the president* on TV here. You really hit the nail right on the head with that one.
* I mean specifically this president, we've probably had 60-70 years of people bitching about the president on TV
clearing on 22/8/2008 at 09:33
Quote Posted by 242
South Ossetia is territory of Georgia.
What? Stupid! Read history, please :devil: S. Ossetia was never historically part of Georgia, it was a gift of Stalin.
242 on 22/8/2008 at 10:03
And here is the man Mr.d'Spair supports:
(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGV25M2kpfM)
This is an example of typical (and extremely rare) political "TV debates" on Russia's TV. I mean they don't physically bash every person who doesn't agree with their policy, but always
humiliate him/her, next he's fired, his business is crushed.It's
the rule there, not necessarily last two consequences, but humiliating oppositionist is the rule. It's like they somehow physically can't listen any critique.
If you knew Russian, you would find that words of Zhirinovskiy are even MUCH more impressive than his actions here. The man who was supposed to argue with him ventured on quite mild critique. It's also very illustrative that other people in the studio didn't want to help. They as as well as the man who tried to debate with him are just AFRAID of the idiot . The man is quite authoritative in Russian policy, supported by Russians, and is favoured by Kremlin.
I'm not at all saying all Russians support such idiots. I know many Russian politics and people who are very liberal and peaceful, and composedly embrace the fact that nearby countries may carry independent from Kremlin policy, even if our opinions don't always coincide. The problem is that power in Russia now is in the hands of zhirinovskiys and they have zombified people all these years with only one truth. Their.
What are some differences between my opinion and d'Spair's?
I acknowledge that state of democracy and especially economical freedom in my country aren't that good, and there is a long way ahead, I acknowledge that my country is not the most righteous in the world, I don't want that my country instruct others how they should live. My opinion is that state should cut in life of its citizens as little as possible, President and government are just hired brainworkers, not czars.
242 on 22/8/2008 at 10:04
Quote Posted by clearing
What? Stupid! Read history, please :devil: S. Ossetia was never historically part of Georgia, it was a gift of Stalin.
You know , I don't care if they was historically or not. I care about its international status now. If we'll start to discuss what historically was owned by countries or people we'll not get anywhere.
