242 on 21/8/2008 at 11:53
Quote Posted by quinch
Saakashvili could learn a thing or too about the troubles in Northern Ireland and the futility of bombing innocent civilians.
Sorry, but you just probably don't know a thing about those innocent civilians. Regular shooting up of territory controlled by Georgians with armament lavishly supplied by Russia (and remember that Russia is supposed to be peacekeepers there, i.e. unbiased), regular sabotages, regular intrusions of Russian aircrafts beyond Georgian borders. Georgia lives with all that for years, and can't do a thing about that. All Georgia's population is half of Moscow's population.
I wonder how Russians would feel themselves, how Putin would feel himself, if Georgia's aircrafts regularly intervened Russia's territory and they couldn't do anything with that, if USA intervened Russia when Russia waged war in Chechnya and they couldn't do anything with that?
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And where would the invasion of Iraq figure on your chart of superpower intervention?
I'm not competent enough in this matter as I didn't pay enough attention to it. All I can say, IMO, it was a screwup.
quinch on 21/8/2008 at 12:40
Well, I'm just trying to see the big picture here. The activities you have described don't paint a pretty picture but wasn't the current (and previous) Georgian government put in place by a Western backed coup? It's important to see the Russian point of view on things and how they might feel about this going on on their doorstep.
Maybe its just the wording but you mention "shooting up territory?"
I read a report from Tskhinvali resident, Saramat Tskhovredov who states "I saw a Georgian soldier throw a grenade into a basement full of women and children," Of course, it all depends on what papers you read.
Georgia were willing participants in the Iraq war. I'm not saying this is cummupance for that but it's quite clear who they are "with".
242 on 21/8/2008 at 14:01
Quote Posted by quinch
Well, I'm just trying to see the big picture here. The activities you have described don't paint a pretty picture but wasn't the current (and previous) Georgian government put in place by a Western backed coup?
Georgian government and Georgian President were elected by absolute majority of Georgia's people. The elections were acknowledged as democratic and free by OSCE, Freedom House, other authoritative institutions. Just past winter, answering to Georgia's opposition accusations Saakashvili declared that he wanted to check if people still trusted him and strongly won President election again.
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Georgia were willing participants in the Iraq war. I'm not saying this is cummupance for that but it's quite clear who they are "with".
Yes, USA is their partner. How else do you propose them to defend their territorial integrity and independence being under constant pressing of Russia, if NATO doesn't want to adopt them yet? What they should do, should they just give away their territories, independence, bow to Putin and be ruled from Kremlin?
In the same time, Russia owning vast territory still doesn't want to give a few tiny small islands back to Japan, instead they want more and more territory. South Ossetia is just one of many long term special operations developed by Moscow specialists and masterfully carried on post USSR territory to annex some regions to Russia.
Rogue Keeper on 21/8/2008 at 14:48
It is astounding - and sad - to observe how much trust and faith are some former USSR countries willing to put into NATO, USA and "Free West" in general. One historical lesson I took is that I can't rely on support of the superpowers, because when the right time comes, they use me to their own advantage, squeeze out the best from me and then either betray me, barter me for something else, leave me to my fate and maybe even become friends with my former tyrant.
But Machiavelli has a point as well. Some small countries don't have many options left so in practice it is necessary to choose sides. And pray for the happy future and marriage eternal.
242 on 21/8/2008 at 15:07
Well, but I asked about proposition for Georgians and for Georgia government. What they should do?
Should they obediently observe spec op that Russia masterfully carries out in Ossetia and Abkhazia and eventually give away their territories to Russia or what? BTW, by any chance don't Slovaks want to give away part of their land and be ruled from Moscow? ;)
Rogue Keeper on 21/8/2008 at 16:42
Quote Posted by 242
Well, but I asked about proposition for Georgians and for Georgia government. What they should do?
Machiavelli would probably suggest they should shut up and let the higher powers decide what's gonna happen with them. Actually they are doing that already for some time so they are certainly on GOOD path for their future...
If I was a Georgian, I would support Saakashvili's political opposition (not bowing either to Russia or the USA) and actively try to replace him with somebody smarter with real democratic and diplomatic potential... somebody who would seriously think before he takes massive offense at civilian targets... and somebody who doesn’t chew his tie.
But every nation has government it deserves, right?
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Should they obediently observe spec op that Russia masterfully carries out in Ossetia and Abkhazia and eventually give away their territories to Russia or what? BTW, by any chance don't Slovaks want to give away part of their land and be ruled from Moscow?
Ossetia and Abkhayia are disputed territories. Majority of their people don't want to be part of Georgia, and they increasingly don't like each other. For most South Ossetians it would be difficult to integrate into Georgian society. Once Georgia was happy it gained independence on Russian Federation, but now they don't want to grant peace and freedom to even weaker ethnical minority of South Ossetians. That is not hypocrisy?
We were ruled by Moscow enough in the past. And curiously some of our people are now willing to sell us to sphere of influence of 'the other' superpower. They didn't get their historical lesson. Before we had our deal of supporters of Nazist Germany. And long before that supporters of invading Turks. Czechs have it even worse, there is gonna be American anti-rocket radar on their territory against will of majority of population. As if current Czech government was a direct satelite of White House or something. I'm far from a nationalist but I perceive this kind of superpower anus licking as sort of treason.
Question more important than what should Russians or Georgians do, for me is : What should Abkhazians and Ossetians desiring independence on Georgia do? Don't tell me, I know the answer : They should shut up and let the more powerful nations around decide what's gonna happen with them.
If the UN has recognized South Ossetian independence years ago, this shit would not happen.It’s basically the same sort of thing as Izrael-Palestine. International community‘s ignorance and weak ability to foresee ethnical conflicts in the future has it‘s own share of guilt for what’s going on in Palestine, what’s been happening in Kosovo and now what’s happening in Ossetia.
By the way, UA still has SubCarpathian Ruthenia. As threatening Stalin is long time dead, it is time to claim it back from you. Hand it over! :sly:
Wait, there is no oil there. Keep it.
242 on 21/8/2008 at 17:09
BR796164, I mentioned hypocrisy, I'm wondering did you criticize Russia like you criticize Georgia now, when Chechnya's people wanted independence and were severely punished for their wish, actually much more severely?
Because if you didn't, you're obviously biased.
d'Spair on 21/8/2008 at 18:28
Oh yeah, I've been waiting for this thread for days.
Quote Posted by 242
Russia presses Georgia now for about the same they themselves did with Chechnya.
Oh yeah, probably people who live in Chechnya have some other (non-Russian) passports, and evil Russia has been bombing and killing citizens of some other state. Shame on the aggressors!
Quote Posted by 242
But the main thing is this - Chechnya is territory of Russia, South Ossetia is territory of Georgia. No one intervened Russian territory when they waged war for many years and killed thousands of people to conquer the separatist region which demanded independence, Georgia's or anyone's else aircrafts didn't bomb Russian towns, anyone's fleet didn't drown Russian ships for that etc....
And this man is saying something about 'informational policy' and its negative effects.
Quote Posted by 242
I mean they deny us right to conduct independent foreign policy
So you mean you want 'independent foreign policy' (i.e. NATO military bases at our borders) conducted by 'young democracy' sponsored by the State Department, and, at the same time, you want low prices for Russian oil and gas? I can't see the logic.
Quote Posted by 242
I'd look at your reaction if your country had been divided and intervened by nearby super power.
If I were you I would already start worrying about the future of the Ukrainian integrity. These evil bastards and separatists from the Eastern regions never sleep.
Quote Posted by 242
I'm not competent enough in this matter as I didn't pay enough attention to it. All I can say, IMO, it was a screwup.
Hmm, I can swear I thought you were on the American side back in the days of the hot discussions in the Russian forums. Well, my memory sometimes plays tricks on me.
Quote Posted by 242
In the same time, Russia owning vast territory still doesn't want to give a few tiny small islands back to Japan, instead they want more and more territory. South Ossetia is just one of many long term special operations developed by Moscow specialists and masterfully carried on post USSR territory to annex some regions to Russia.
Oh that's incredible. So why Ukraine won't give a few tiny small Eastern regions back to Russia? I believe Ukraine wants more and more territory. Imperialists.
Quote Posted by SD
Russia lost any claim to neutrality when it started funding and supplying separatist militias in South Ossetia. Since that's evidently been going on for more than a decade, one might profer that Russia's "peacekeeping operation" never had any legitimacy.
SD, are you Ukrainian or Georgian? :)
Quote Posted by SD
award-winning journalist Anna Politkovskaya worked until the Russian government assassinated her two years ago
So you probably have some facts to present to the folks here, don't you.
I start to feel that you might be a Russian liberal democrat, that's even worse.
dreamcatcher on 21/8/2008 at 18:59
The Caucasus has historically been a very volatile place in terms of wars, squabbles and ethnic cleansing between various nations, tribes, warlords and chieftains. Georgia was quite vulnerable and at the mercy of Turks and Persians when it chose to become part of the Russian Empire. It flourished nicely under its protection.
So, it decided that it wanted independence and achieved it. Great. Why then, when they finally separated itself from Russia, did the new Georgian government try its hardest to alienate their former master and generally be a nuisance to their large neighbor. Instead of trying to foster new useful relationships, they became a lapdog to the White House, installing American military bases, rushing to apply for a membership in the NATO alliance (whose original purpose was not only defense of the Western bloc from the evils of communism, but the destruction of the Eastern bloc, including Russia.)
I do not dismiss the possibility that the conflict might have been the result of a provocation, but that does not excuse the stupidity of the Georgian leader. Neither will I claim that Russia is in any way justified in their march toward Tbilisi. But let's be realistic, one should not expect immunity from conflict when flaunting a powerful former ally the way Saakashvili did.
I guess that media hypocrisy irks me the most. Every hysterical journo on the air wails about Russia's imperial ambitions, while failing to recognize that it is precisely because of the imperial ambitions of the current White House administration, the U.S. is meddling in the affairs of local politics on another continent.
242 on 21/8/2008 at 19:03
If anyone wondering, d'Spair got to my ignore list a long time ago, and there has been only one person for all these years in the list, he done a really notable accomplishment.
So I'm going to... well... keep to ignore :cheeky:
