quinch on 20/8/2008 at 14:05
Hmmmm, I bet you really wound up the Russians on that other forum with a smile and a wink.
Muzman on 20/8/2008 at 14:14
Quote Posted by 242
Most assuredly. It's a major animosity and hate provoking theme between Russians and citizens of some other ex-USSR countries. The views are totally contrary. F.e. I myself on Georgia's side. Perhaps you suspect nothing being far away, but this animosity often is worse that it was between USSR and USA back in second part of past century.
Ahah. I was thinking that they might tell some false story and be controversial/inflamatory that way. Perhaps they do, depending on who the viewer sides with. I know nothing of either point of view on the matter.
Those in the know can assess (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_South_Ossetia_war) the wikipedia article on the matter for folks like me if they like.
242 on 20/8/2008 at 14:29
Quote:
Hmmmm, I bet you really wound up the Russians on that other forum with a smile and a wink.
Well, I just don't argue on any political theme there anymore because our points of view are totally contrary, they are united like monolith, not at all like Americans, and hate any different point of view when matter concerns their country or interests of Russia or USA or NATO etc etc - utterly strong state informational policy there does its part.
Rogue Keeper on 20/8/2008 at 14:30
So Russia are the bad guys and Georgia the good guys? Holy simplicity. I understand that you have, as an Ukrainian, a grudge against Russia and you're of course entitled to it. But this is somewhat more difficult.
Russia had legal presence of peacekeeping forces in South Ossetia, sanctioned by international agrements and South Ossetians (who are mostly Russians) expressed in referendum their wish for independence on Georgia. Saakashvili "democratically" ignores this decison. That is his small imperialism.
The main responsibility for initiation of this mess is on shoulders of Georgian president and government. I'm not going to be sorry for corrupted nutcase Saakashvili and his crones just because he leads a small country while the other big one is perceived as imperialistic dragon. He provoked by shooting rockets at civilian objects, he got the payback. I presume Georgian nation will be cursing him in the future and rightfully so.
If Medvedev and Putin have some common sense they should pull back from Georgian territory back behind the South Ossetian border and leave Tbilisi at peace, otherwise they don't help their cause and the rest of respect of the world too much.
Saakashvili was naive if he believed that US will move a finger to suport him directly with militarily aid. The US-Russia relationships are fragile enough as they are because of the anti-rocket shield program (which obviusly isn't defense against muslim suicidal bombing terrorists). If I was the head of Russia, surely I would be scared if the other superpower intended to put rockets and radars around my place and I would make necessary countermeasures. Some US critics of Russia will come on diplomatic level, that's all. Or does anybody want a third world war because of this? We shall see.
Also, a lovely curiosity from Fox News:
(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H8XI2Chc6uQ)
242 on 20/8/2008 at 15:44
Quote Posted by BR796164
So Russia are the bad guys and Georgia the good guys? Holy simplicity.
No, having said that I'm on Georgia's side I don't mean that I consider any side 100% righteous. It's exceptional hypocrisy that gets me.
Russia presses Georgia now for about the same they themselves did with Chechnya.
But the main thing is this - Chechnya is territory of Russia, South Ossetia is territory of Georgia. No one intervened Russian territory when they waged war for many years and killed thousands of people to conquer the separatist region which demanded independence, Georgia's or anyone's else aircrafts didn't bomb Russian towns, anyone's fleet didn't drown Russian ships for that etc. Now, when Georgia (after many years of unsuccessful tries to solve the conflict politically, and this failure happened not without direct partaking of Russia, keeping strong presence in South Ossetia all these years and arming Ossetins) tried to solve the problem by force, Russia under cover of "peacekeeping mission" (which Georgia by the way for a long time demands to change to peacekeepers from unconcerned countries) intervened Georgia. Rusians generally greatly respect Putin for steady hand and for what he did with Chechnya and simultaneously denies Georgians and all other nations around them right to have a President with similarly steady hand. Isn't it hypocrisy? Isn't it disrespect of territorial integrity of small countries that no one is going to protect? How Russia may be "peacekeepers" if they are party of interest and want to annex South Ossetia and Abkhazia to Russia?
Quote:
I understand that you have, as an Ukrainian, a grudge against Russia and you're of course entitled to it.
Exactly. I don't have anything against Russians as people, but I don't like current Russia's policy, intolerance to other points of view, hate for Americans and for all others who don't agree with their policy actively implanted by country-wide mass media every of which is controlled by Kremlin, disrespect for their supposedly "brother" countries, I mean they deny us right to conduct independent foreign policy.
Respect and be respected.
SD on 20/8/2008 at 17:00
Quote Posted by BR796164
Russia had legal presence of peacekeeping forces in South Ossetia, sanctioned by international agr[e]ements
Russia lost any claim to neutrality when it started funding and supplying separatist militias in South Ossetia. Since that's evidently been going on for more than a decade, one might profer that Russia's "peacekeeping operation" never had any legitimacy.
Quote Posted by BR796164
South Ossetians (who are mostly Russians)
South Ossetians are "mostly Russians" because Russia has been doling passports out to all and sundry. I'm sure its motives for doing so were perfectly noble...
Incidentally, I wonder if you would be supportive of George Bush if he handed every Cuban an American passport, then invaded when Raul Castro refused to let Cuba become part of the United States. Somehow I doubt it!
Quote Posted by BR796164
expressed in referendum their wish for independence on Georgia. Saakashvili "democratically" ignores this decison. That is his small imperialism.
No, it is his legal right. Leaders are not bound to abide by the results of illegitimate referenda in disputed territories, never mind those in which only one of the relevant ethnic groups bothers to partake (and most of those having already been ethnically-cleansed from the area).
Quote Posted by BR796164
The main responsibility for initiation of this mess is on shoulders of Georgian president and government.
Oh please. Russia has been engineering this operation for years. Supplying secessionists with guns, undermining Georgian territorial integrity by giving passports to the South Ossetians, sending 400 troops into Abkhazia under the pretext of rebuilding a railway, (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_North_Ossetia_sabotages) sabotaging Georgian gas pipelines, shooting down Georgian drones with MiGs, (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Georgia_missile_incident) attempting to bomb a Georgian radar installation, (
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_deportation_of_Georgians_from_Russia) ethnically cleansing Georgians from Russia itself... Russia has done everything it possibly can to provoke a conflict with Georgia, simply so it can annex parts of that tiny country as punishment for folowing a democratic path and seeking closer ties with the free West.
Novaya Gazeta, the Russian newspaper that is critical of their increasingly tyrranical government (and for whom award-winning journalist Anna Politkovskaya worked until the Russian government assassinated her two years ago) has an excellent article on the level of planning that the Russians put into the operation, which has helpfully been translated into English (
http://www.robertamsterdam.com/2008/08/pavel_felgenhauer_on_russias_p.htm) here.
And (
http://oilandglory.com/2008/08/death-toll-is-in-for-south-ossetia.html) here we have evidence that Saakashvili was left with two options - allow Russian-funded Ossetian terrorist militias to launch attacks on Georgian villages, or put a stop to it by taking military action. Under the circumstances, I don't see how he had any choice but to send Georgian troops into South Ossetia.
Really BR, just because Georgia and the USA are on the same side does not make Georgia the bad guys here. Judge each situation on its merits, not on your own personal biases. What we have here is a fledgling democracy which has been invaded and partially-
anschlussed by a massive dictatorship on the same pretext that Hitler used to invade the Sudetenland. It doesn't take a genius to work out who is right and who is wrong in this instance.
quinch on 20/8/2008 at 23:54
Well, I guess I always had a soft spot for the Russians. They did beat Hitler and the Nazis for us after all. If it wasn't for their sacrifice of over 20 million we would all be speaking German by now. In Europe anyway. Not that speaking German is a bad thing under the right circumstances ;)
Anyways, I would have been a bit sad if they hadn't done something against that jumped up little Bush puppet. What a silly boy he was.
As it happens I wasn't disappointed :)
Russia is back baby. You'd better belieeeve it ;)
Specter on 21/8/2008 at 00:02
Quote Posted by quinch
Well, I guess I always had a soft spot for the Russians. They did beat Hitler and the Nazis for us after all. If it wasn't for their sacrifice of over 20 million we would all be speaking German by now. In Europe anyway. Not that speaking German is a bad thing under the right circumstances ;)
Anyways, I would have been a bit sad if they hadn't done something against that jumped up little Bush puppet. What a silly boy he was.
As it happens I wasn't disappointed :)
Russia is back baby. You'd better belieeeve it ;)
This should bring the conversation to a nice place...
Ko0K on 21/8/2008 at 04:21
I'm re-tasting the chorizo I had for breakfast this morning, after seeing some of those photos. To be perfectly honest, I think most Americans should see those coming out of Iraq to see how out of touch with reality we are.
Koki on 21/8/2008 at 07:05
Well, one thing I wasn't expecting was to people actually be shocked by the pics.
