242 on 25/8/2008 at 23:21

---

Political freedom is relative as all in the universe. I compared political freedom in Yeltsin's time and nowadays in Russia. All Russians perfectly know when their mass media and politicians were more free, even if they don't like to acknowledge it publicly.



I meant attitude of Russians to neighbourhood countries. They were much more friendly back then. Now Putin's state propaganda during last 8 years did its work quite well, they hate all who don't agree with Kremlin and carry independent policy, blindly claiming every objector is USA's puppet, and they really believe in that. They just can't accept that someone who is from ex-USSR can have different opinion from Kremlin's.

Zygoptera on 26/8/2008 at 01:04

---

Wasn't Rurik (Veliky) Novgorodian anyway, rather than Kievan, which would make the Republic/ Principality (sic, RIP) of Novgorod the 'legitimate' owner?


You linked to it initially, you quoted directly from it, and basically repeated the information from it, thus the comment. Frankly, the version of events in that article and which has been released by the British government has a whole lot of holes in it which are not too difficult to find.


Nope, no need for the list. However, while that has been presented as conclusive it ain't. Per Wikipedia (haha) no less than eight cases occurred in the US where lethal sized doses of Po were simply lost, in 2006. Suffice it to say that there certainly are credible alternative sources, it would be near trivial to obtain trace amounts if you wanted to set someone else up, and the thought that an assassin would apparently handle it so badly that they managed to contaminate a restaurant, multiple hotel rooms and two planes, so the only conclusion is that they were carrying around a leaking container of it for days and/or got it all over their hands/ body/ clothes stretches credulity. And this is for something which is far more toxic when inhaled (which you'd be exposed to from a persistent source) than ingested (which is how Mr L was supposed to be poisoned).



Main problem with that is that if the stories they have been spinning are true then the various ex KGB, potential defectors and ex oligarchs already know that the FSB is willing and able to take them out, as they've been happily murdering their way through dissidents, journalists, ex officers and politicians since they changed their name, supposedly have them on the top of their hit list and had already tried to kill some of them. In that case there's no need to send a message, if you wanted to kill someone the "message" would be received just as well if Mr L blew himself up accidentally in a gas leak or had a murder suicide or got shot/ stabbed in a robbery gone wrong or fell from a building or dropped dead from an apparent heart attack or broke his neck falling down the stairs or any of the other scenarios which have far more plausible deniability. Mr L's accusations were showing every sign of becoming increasingly bizarre and verging on incredible so it is unlikely his credibility would have lasted much longer, all his meaty accusations were six years old and killing someone so obviously simply leads credence to their accusations. All it would gain them would be a plummeting of their international standing, a reputation for incompetence and a whole lot of alienation while having a large risk of collateral damage and not even using a slam dunk technique (oops, he knocked his tea over/ didn't feel thirsty/ didn't drink enough/ never left the table/ etc etc etc.)

Also, compare with the other supposed assassination plots, which involved the far more sensible route of just plain old fashioned shooting the target.


No, that's easy to refute, in fact I did it pages ago. Just to repeat: Firstly, Mr S has always maintained that the separatist regions would be reintegrated no matter what means were necessary and has had their integration as an integral part of his policy since becoming president. He also had previously overrun a smaller enclave using similar tactics to those he tried in SO, so he has 'form'. Secondly, the South Ossetians had no policy of ethnic relocation. After 16 years of quasi independence a fifth+ of their population was still ethnic Georgian, after all, and was static as a proportion (cf Kosovo, where the Serb population has dropped from 10% to around 3% in a decade). Thirdly, the justification used by Mr S was violation of the ceasefire by the Ossetians, not plans for ethnic cleansing. Fourthly an examination of the initial wars would show that while the Abkhazians and most significantly the Georgians were happy to use ethnic displacement as a tactic, the South Ossetians, by and large, did not (hence the high proportion of ethnic Georgians remaining in SO). Fifthly, since no one would recognise their own passports the Ossetians had to accept Russian ones if they wanted to travel which most did because there was little work at home (once again, even prior to independence Kosovans did not have Serb/Yugo passports either). Sixthly, Mr S has also had no problems with using masked paramilitaries on the opposition, or shutting down their TV stations, or padding the wallets of his cronies, or most other typical tactics of the average strongman and not particularly consistent with progressive democracy.


Had de facto independence for years and used it to export their organised crime, fundamentalist islam and terrorism to Dagestan, Ingustetia and more while driving out ethnic minorities and intimidating and extorting their own people. I don't have much time for Russia's conduct in Chechenya, and one of the proximal reasons for the second invasion was dodgy, but that was most definitely a fight between two 'bad guys' with plenty of overt and documented provocation prior. I find it very difficult to muster much in the way of sympathy for Chenchenya as an entity, as it was only slightly more tolerant and progressive than Taleban Afghanistan and as corrupt as a 1970's Sicilian magistrate. In any case it isn't directly comparable to SO, which is not exporting its separatism, isn't extremist in anything except for not wanting to be part of Georgia, was not driving out minorities and hasn't used organised terrorism.

242 on 26/8/2008 at 09:58

---

You see, even here clearing wants 100% support of his POV.
He can't accept that someone can think differently after learning the issue and that everyone isn't agreed with Kremlin.



I perfectly understand what's going on. I perfectly understand that what Russia did with Chechnya was much more worse that what Georgia tried to do with its own separatist region. I understand that you glorify Putin for what he did with Chechnya and in the same time hate Saakashvili for he tried to do a tiny bit of what Putin did. And also, I understand that Abkhazia and Ossetia are long term special operations of Russian specialists to annex the territories to Russia.

Thirith on 26/8/2008 at 10:48

---

Clearing, one question: do you think that everyone who is critical of Russia in this is "just repeat[ing] what they hear from Fox News and CNN, Orange Ukraine channels" and "see[ing] only one side of the story"?

Second question: what reason do we have to believe that you're not seeing only one side of the story (namely the Russian one) either?

In this thread I've mainly seen you make claims without backing them up much and putting down those who disagree with you. I haven't seen much in the way of arguing your point. I haven't seen much in the way of acknowledging that depending on your point of view Russia may not be 100% right in its actions. I've only seen variations on the theme of "I'm right - who doesn't agree with me is obviously wrong and brainwashed by Western media." Please tell me if I'm wrong here.

bikerdude on 26/8/2008 at 11:26

---

....I don't think TTLG is the place for this, we have a wide and diverse community of people who use this site who get along very well and its sad to see that being trampled upon (which even comm chat normally shy's away from)

Some of pictures were incredibly horrific and disparagingly sad. I can only hope that in this digital age such explicit and graphic depictions of what one human can do to another will serve as a deterrant of some kind....

:(