242 on 25/8/2008 at 10:53
Quote Posted by clearing
You seem like a somewhat intelligent boy, but I fear that a life of privilege has made you lose touch with the real world.
What was that? I don't live any "life of privilege" as you put it, I depend only on myself, make my living myself, and I'm not rich. I'm just interested in policy.
You may not know it yet, but trying to look too smart is not supported here, especially when you try to do it in such way :cheeky:
clearing on 25/8/2008 at 11:23
All last posts is offtop.
Quote Posted by clearing
Ok. Silly question, ONLY the US/UK/Israel may meddle in the affairs of other nations?
S.Ossetia is not sovereign territory of Georgia. They invaded Ossetia, killing people purposely. What would the US do if Serbia tried to take back Kosovo? If Kosovo can be ripped away from Serbia, then S. Ossetia can be ripped away from Georgia since Georgia has no historical claim and the people who live there don't want to be part of Georgia. What's that? You didn't say that on Russian forum when a Albanian didn't want to be part of Serbia, unlike the Ossetians who have lived there forever.
Sorry for my bad English.
SD on 25/8/2008 at 12:13
Quote Posted by clearing
S.Ossetia is not sovereign territory of Georgia.
Okay, I stopped reading here, because yes it is. The rest of your post follows on from this 100% incorrect assertion.
I'm all in favour of a negotiated settlement that would finally resolve the problem of South Ossetia, but for the moment, it's undeniably part of Georgia, every bit as much as Chechnya is part of Russia.
Indeed, isn't it funny how Russia wants "independence" for South Ossetia, but not for Chechnya, even though those situations are broadly identical? No doubt Russia rates its own territorial integrity more highly than that of other countries.
Oh, and Kosovo is way different.
242 on 25/8/2008 at 12:14
Quote Posted by clearing
S.Ossetia is not sovereign territory of Georgia.
S.Ossetia is part of Georgia now. It's acknowledged as such by United Nations and all world's countries, do you understand it?
If Russia doesn't respect United Nations, and territorial integrity of neighbourhood countries, don't expect they will respect Russia, its international interests and integrity.
Quote:
If Kosovo can be ripped away from Serbia, then S. Ossetia can be ripped away from Georgia since Georgia has no historical claim and the people who live there don't want to be part of Georgia.
If Kosovo can be ripped away from Serbia, then my apartment can be ripped away from my city too I guess because it wants to be a part of Falkland Islands. I mean quite flawed logic you have. Please note that I'm not saying I support either of sides in Kosovo issue.
If Russia didn't meddle in Georgia's internal affairs, people who lived in Georgian Ossetia would want to be part of Georgia. It's just that almost all Georgians left it forcedly and only Ossetins remained, later most of them were issued with Russian passports despite Georgian laws. Now Russia claims they are its citizens and it must protect them. Ordinary spec op, and not new. If they so want to live in Russia they could move there years ago.
Rogue Keeper on 25/8/2008 at 12:48
Their troops are allowed to roam S.Ossetia at their will. They botched their, what they call 'defense mission', by treading on Georgia proper. That's the issue.
Oh and Russia is member of UN SC.
242 on 25/8/2008 at 13:01
Quote Posted by BR796164
Their troops are allowed to roam S.Ossetia at their will.
That was the error of UN SC. Somehow they didn't take into account that Russia was a side of the conflict. I even can't imagine how it could happen.
Rogue Keeper on 25/8/2008 at 13:08
Aaah, the power of veto.
Somebody could try to dig up the particular Resolution, I'm lazy right now.
Edit : It looks like White House has found replacement already... (
http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=19268)
And opinion of US Ambassador in Russia, John Beyrle. He says that Russian action in South Ossetia has been "justified / legitimate", but as the Russian troops have treaded on proper Georgian territory, the integrity of Georgia has been compromised. A very cautious, but in the end wise attitude, attempting not to harm US relationships with anyone :
Quote:
Никто из первых лиц США вроде президента Буша и госсекретаря Райс никогда не критиковал обстрел Цхинвали. Означает ли это, что США поддерживают подобные действия?
— Тот факт, что мы очень настойчиво убеждали грузинскую сторону не идти на этот шаг, ясно говорит о том, что мы не хотели, чтобы все это произошло. Многие годы мы вместе с Россией были вовлечены во всевозможные международные механизмы вроде группы друзей генсека ООН по Грузии по разрешению этих замороженных конфликтов на грузинской территории. И мы не хотели перехода к насилию и использованию силы — эту позицию США четко обозначили. Мы видим, что российские войска вполне обоснованно ответили на нападение на миротворцев РФ в Южной Осетии. Но теперь эти силы перешли на грузинскую землю, и территориальная целостность Грузии оказалась под угрозой.
(
http://www.kommersant.ru/doc.aspx?DocsID=1014311)
Automatic translation, may contain errors :
Anybody from the first persons of the USA like president Bush and state secretary Rice never criticized bombardment of Tskhinvali. Whether means it, what the USA support similar actions?
— That fact, that we very persistently convinced the Georgian party to not go on this step, clearly speaks that we did not want that all this has occured.
Many years we together with Russia have been involved in every possible international mechanisms like group of friends to the secretary general of the United Nations across Georgia on permit of these frozen conflicts in the Georgian territory. And we did not want transition to violence and use of force — this position of the USA neatly have designated. We see, that the Russian armies quite обоснованно [I presume it's "legitimately"?] have answered an attack on peacemakers of the Russian Federation in South Ossetia. But now these forces send to the Georgian ground, and territorial integrity of Georgia has appeared under threat of.
242 on 25/8/2008 at 13:49
Where the replacement is mentioned there?
Rogue Keeper on 25/8/2008 at 14:02
I smell in the air they will push Burjanadze for presidential office.
242 on 25/8/2008 at 14:27
They can push anyone, but it's Georgian people who vote for President. And they support Saakashvili now.
