SD on 24/9/2006 at 01:52
Quote Posted by fett
StD, let me just come out and say what I'm trying to say.
Well that's a first; normally you just make annoyingly vague and trollish insinuations.
Quote:
It's comically predictable that any time a crime has been committed, you tend to find the most astonishingly creative ways to blame the police, the government, the person's parents, teachers, siblings, pets, and dentist, instead of the individual who actually committed the crime.
In a word: horseshit.
I happen to believe, rightly or wrongly, that rather than being "born bad", most criminals are a product of their upbringing. Yes, it's that old nature vs nurture debate.
Now I appreciate that for individuals with limited capacity for intellectual thought, it's a lot simpler to say "He's a bad 'un" and leave it there. The rest of us will continue to look for societal factors that may have influenced said criminal's actions, and then do our bloody damnedest to eradicate those influences from society.
I make no apologies for refusing to take the easy way out of this debate.
fett on 24/9/2006 at 02:02
And do what with the individual who committed the crime? You agree that something must be done with the individual who committed the crime for the duration of the period in which you'll be creating your utopian crime-free society? Can this person stay at your house?
You also didn't answer my other question. If I shoot you absent any pressure or duress from outside sources with a gun that I own, and you die, who should be prosecuted? This is an easy one.
Convict on 24/9/2006 at 02:04
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
I happen to believe, rightly or wrongly, that rather than being "born bad", most criminals are a product of their upbringing. Yes, it's that old nature vs nurture debate.
Even if you are right on this point (I am undecided in the face of a lack of evidence), at what point does an individual take personal responsibility for their actions? Would all/most people have limited responsibility for their actions since it was caused by other people?
SD on 24/9/2006 at 02:05
Quote Posted by fett
And do what with the individual who committed the crime? You agree that something must be done with the individual who committed the crime for the duration of the period in which you'll be creating your utopian crime-free society? Can this person stay at your house?
He goes in gaol of course. What kind of stupid question is that?
Quote:
You also didn't answer my other question. If I shoot you absent any pressure or duress from outside sources with a gun that I own, and you die, who should be prosecuted? This is an easy one.
I'm not going to dignify that with an answer. You know very well who should be prosecuted; a toddler in kindergarten knows that.
Quote Posted by Convict
Even if you are right on this point (I am undecided in the face of a lack of evidence), at what point does an individual take personal responsibility for their actions? Would all/most people have limited responsibility for their actions since it was caused by other people?
Unless they aren't of sound mind, everyone has to take full responsibility for their actions. Is it stupid question week at TTLG or something?
Myoldnamebroke on 24/9/2006 at 02:07
It's pretty obvious you'd be prosecuted and no-where has StD said anything that implies otherwise. However, should one want to prevent similar incidents of shooting in the future, you'd do well to examine the root causes of the crime in an effort to prevent other people going down the same path of shooting StD in the head.
Also, I've have no idea how you got from the twisting of " 'But why did he gave to kill her' to 'but why do they have to kill him?' " to 'StD thinks he did it because there's capital punishment in the US'. That's a less easy one :p
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Hurrah lots of posts between mine and fett's.
Surely the point is that as much as there is a 'me' I am responsible for my own acts - however, my nature was not forged in isolation. To a degree it doesn't matter what was responsible for making a person the way they are for the purposes of judging them, as long as they present a consistent picture that we can make a judgement from. But if you want further either their development as an individual or society as a whole it's worth getting to grips with the things that motivate people or tend to push them towards certain courses of action - you can't beging to form a solution without understanding what the problem really is.
Drawing a precise line between where credit / responsibilty for one's own actions should be is a nigh-on impossible job, but just because it is doesn't mean we can't recognise both concepts, at least in a day to day sense? Surely it's easy to recognise that, for example, poverty correlates with crime levels yet not all those in poverty are CRIMINAL DEVIANTS. There is individual action yet it's clear some external factors do have an impact on behaviour.
ercles on 24/9/2006 at 02:57
Quote Posted by Strontium Dog
normally you just make annoyingly vague and trollish insinuations.
If that's not the pot calling the kettle black, then I don't know what is.
Also in the whole nature vs nurture argument, there is increasing evidence on the nature side of things. More and more scientists are finding that your genes have an incredible say in your personality through the control of hormones. Inbalances in these hormones can lead to highly aggressive or unstable characteristics, among other things. I haven't looked too deeply into the area, so I'll leave it at that, but I do remember one study conducted in Canada whereby certain rats were bred with a genetic mutation that lead to the production of a specific protein which meant that they basically went postal on their friends. According to the group that conducted the study it is by no means a big stretch of the imagination that the same situation could occur in humans.
SD on 24/9/2006 at 03:19
I'd like to see that study please, do you have a link? Without examining it, I can't tell whether you're misinterpreting the results or merely oversimplifying them :)
Gingerbread Man on 24/9/2006 at 04:17
I want to strangle both of you.
oudeis on 24/9/2006 at 05:56
Is that nature or nurture speaking?
Gingerbread Man on 24/9/2006 at 05:59
I mean all three of you.
