New Horizon on 9/12/2005 at 19:55
Man, people really need some lessons in diplomacy and manners before posting in here. :D
ZylonBane on 9/12/2005 at 20:07
Sorry. People who're wrong yet supremely confident about it just push me over the edge.
sparhawk on 10/12/2005 at 12:18
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
Then you should know that's it's virtually impossible to reverse-engineer the precise behavior of multiple systems that
run simultaneously and interact in upredictable ways, or systems that sometimes behave in a non-deterministic fashion.
THIS is your original quote. There was no talk of 'effectively simoultanous' because the 'effectively' was later slipped in to cover the tracks. :)
Multiple systems running simultanously on one machine definitely means multithreaded, because there is no other way of having running multiple systems simultanously on one machine. If you make arbitrary disctinctions within the game code, is usefull for development purposes, but technically there are no multiple systems as it is one big application all calling into each other. Each loopstep calls all the various modules and they are updated according to their current state and requirements.
Without analyzing the code, it would be even questionable if you could really call this parts seperate modules or systems, because they all need to interface with each other, and depending how this is acutally implemented, they might indeed be seperate moduls, or they might not.
If they have well defined interfaces, then you might call them modules or systems, but that is just speculation as long as you haven't seen the actual design.
Volca on 10/12/2005 at 14:29
There is allways human intuition, and trial->error method :)
You can build radically different application, which can act pretty the same as the original does. The finetuning will be difficult, but not impossible. If ZylonBane says that original DarkEngine acts differently on different CPUs, then there is tolerance in the players too. I mean: There are certain things which can't be only 90% the same - the feeling you have when you play for example, but for some internal application systems, this does not make a big difference - this is finetuning. (Which will take place quite some time from now). Anyway, with the dromed in hand, you can simulate pretty anything you like, and test what the original system does. This is how I found the inner structure of the map.
In past two days, I nearly finished adding lightmaps to testing viewer (for now only static ones - e.g. not for the switchable lights), will upload the updated code to SF site soon. There allready is a screenshot with lightmaps on SF.
I've got a question: I know there is a converter for in-game objects, so the structure of those must be known. Does someone have a clue where to get this info?
After the time I will be able to load the level with objects and switch light on and off, this will be the time to start the real coding.
Also, please, if someone of you does have a time and knows a bit C++, enough to understand that messy code of mine and find a bug in the code of texturemapping, please do so - 80-90% of faces have textures that fit (this is a problem of data interpretation, took some time to get even to this stage).
Sorry for the long text (and for my horrilble english).
ZylonBane on 10/12/2005 at 14:59
Quote Posted by sparhawk
Multiple systems running simultanously on one machine definitely means multithreaded, because there is no other way of having running multiple systems simultanously on one machine.
Am I going to have to beat you with the cluestick too, and point out that on a single-core system, NOTHING is happening simultaneously? Multithreading is just a convenience provided by the operating system.
Quote:
If you make arbitrary disctinctions within the game code, is usefull for development purposes, but technically there are no multiple systems as it is one big application all calling into each other.
Please point me to a definitive source which says the word "system" must only refer to a threaded module. I very much doubt you'll be able to find one. In
ENGLISH, "system" is normally used to refer to any chunk of code dedicated to a specific purpose. It doesn't have a damn thing to do with threading.
hopper on 10/12/2005 at 15:38
Quote Posted by ZylonBane
on a single-core system, NOTHING is happening simultaneously
Which is what Assidragon and sparhawk have been saying all along, whereas you started out with "multiple systems that run simultaneously". We all know now that you meant "virtually simultaneously", but that was not what you first said. So stop digging.
jay pettitt on 10/12/2005 at 17:13
Quote Posted by Spars
There was no talk of 'effectively simoultanous' because the 'effectively' was later slipped in to cover the tracks.
Or maybe the use of
effectively was used to clear up confusion after
YOU mistakenly interpreted the previous post as meaning multi threading.
Sparhawk, I know there is a language barrier, but you really are being a great big pedantic cock. Even if you originally interpreted it that way, ZB did not infer the use of multi threading or intend to infer the use of multi threading; as has been repeatedly stated over and over. Show a bit of respect to the thread and stop arguing the point.
Volca - those light maps are looking sweet.
ZylonBane on 10/12/2005 at 19:45
Quote Posted by hopper
Which is what Assidragon and sparhawk have been saying all along
No it's isn't. They've been squawking over and over that "multithreading" is the only way to get a computer to do more than one thing at once, which is wrong no matter how you slice it.
Briareos H on 10/12/2005 at 20:05
This thread is retarded.
My friends, 'tis the first time I see people nitpicking on words MORE than ZylonBane. If you are unable to clearly understand that ZB's first post was in no way discussing the manner the CPU executes code, well... :sweat:
Anyway, OF COURSE no "OpenDarkEngine" will ever run Thief Missions perfectly like Thief. I'd gladly see anyone's Open Source "interpretation" of the Dark Engine though. It can take multiple forms, the most important being at the time The Dark Mod. But some community engine, able to run original Thief missions using Thief Material such as textures would be great. It could anyway be very useful as post-DromEd pre-Thief tool.
