TF on 13/12/2005 at 14:53
Dyyyyeaaaarrrrgh.
So...why not put up an .exe then?
Volca on 13/12/2005 at 15:04
Sorry, no exe this time. Will try to make one, but I'm not oriented in cross-platform compiling now. Sure there will be one after things get more advanced.
I would be glad for a person that would watch for windows binaries, preparing them for every version released.
Domarius on 14/12/2005 at 03:35
Like I keep saying - reverse engineering isn't nessecary. You just have to duplicate the same behaviour, doesn't matter how you do it.
ZylonBane on 14/12/2005 at 04:12
Quote Posted by Domarius
Like I keep saying - reverse engineering isn't nessecary. You just have to duplicate the same behaviour, doesn't matter how you do it.
That's what reverse engineering IS.
Domarius on 14/12/2005 at 06:00
*slap*
No, it's not. I understand reverse engineering to be pulling something appart and re-producing how it works based on exactly the way the thing was constructed in the first place.
But all that is needed for this project is a black box approach. You just note that patrol points are used to make guards walk to each one, that room brushes are used to propagate sound, and so on. HOW you make the program do those things is up to you.
This will probably show up a few bugs in the FMs that get down to a detailed level where they start relying on wierd quirks of the DarkEngine that only show up in specific situations, but most FMs never go there.
sparhawk on 14/12/2005 at 08:32
Quote Posted by Domarius
*slap*
No, it's not. I understand reverse engineering to be pulling something appart and re-producing how it works based on exactly the way the thing was constructed in the first place.
For reverse engineering there are several methods. One is to dissasmble the machine code and rewrite it exactly like it was before. This may be prohibited in some countries.
Another method is a kind of blackbox reverse engineering. You throw data at the code and see what it does with it. Then you write a function that emulates the behaviour such that for the same input parameters it will yield the same output. This method is not prohibited currently and is also, for example, the recommended method for developing Wine or ReactOS.
Of course the first method is quite painfull and slow, but int he end it is much safer, because, ideally, your application will behave exactly as the original did.
The second method doesn't create any problems with law in some countries, but of course you can never know wether your function will work the same in all cases. Of course it may not be needed to replicate the behaviour 100% and also this method is much faster. It all depends on the flexibillity of your input data. If your data is sufficiently broadranged, so that it covers a good deal of the functionality, then it is much better to use this approach. It would be pretty hard though with a closed engine as a game engine is.
Domarius on 14/12/2005 at 11:47
Yes, and for reasons you stated, I think the black box approach is the best in this case.
Besides - you wouldn't want an exact replica of the DarkEngine - its so buggy.
Luthien on 14/12/2005 at 15:25
When talking about computer programs, the commonly accepted meaning of "reverse engineering" is to stare at the binary machine code to find out what the program does and to write new *source code* that does the same (after being translated to machine code, of course).
ZylonBane on 14/12/2005 at 15:40
Quote Posted by Domarius
Besides - you wouldn't want an exact replica of the DarkEngine - its so buggy.
Of course you would. It may be buggy, but obviously it works. Yeah, if issues like SHAS and rope arrow bouncing could be fixed that would be great, but the entire point of such an exercise would be to future-proof existing Thief content. If someone wants to develop in a more stable, modern environment, that's what the Dark Mod is for.
oDDity on 14/12/2005 at 18:33
IF we do go ahead with wrting some sort of script for using Thief content in the Dark Mod, which takes an existing Thief installation on the users HD and uses the content for a Dark Mod missions ( I say content, when what I mean is 'sounds', since all the other THief content is useless), then making a Dark Engine II becomes totally pointless, since the Dark Mod will essentailly be an open source (eventually) Dark Engine II.
