King No One on 17/8/2013 at 17:39
So why is it that nuThief has failed to win the hearts of the fans? Is it the old fandom chestnut that we wanted something "different but exactly the same" as our white-washed recollections? Is it the fact that our rich modding and editing community genuinely feels they could be (or are already) doing a better job of keeping the brand alive? Do we just not like Eidos Montreal or Square Enix?
Of late I've read many posts with regard to the game and these have specific problems with the gameplay/setting; no supernatural enemies, none of the old factions, loss of the 'mosaic' style cutscenes, focus-mode, rope arrow restrictions, Steven Russel etc. Now all of these concerns could be addressed with either DLC packs or adjusting the in game settings, yet few seem interested in giving the game a chance to tell its own story. It seems that no matter how good the story/gameplay of NuThief will be (questionable, I'll admit due to the preponderance of FMV in the trailers and the majority of gameplay vids failing to set my loins aquiver) the game is somehow tainted from conception.
Other posters have cited the fact that the games long development cycle, massive production overspend and high staff turnover is indicative of its lack of quality but one only has to look at The Dark Project to see that sainted LGS endured a similar situation. Don't believe me? Here, (
http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/131762/postmortem_thief_the_dark_project.php) look! I mean it was originally conceived as Better Red than Undead for Burricks sake(Shout out to Subjective Effect for that link).
Why is it difficult for the community to humour the idea that within the restrictions of its engine/coding (like its predecessors) Thief IV may be a thief game? That wasn't a typo; many people have said that TDP & TMA are fantastic games in general but the benchmark Thief games, while DS is a great game but merely a passable Thief entry. The implication there being that Thief may be a good game but be more of an AC, Dishonored instalment. Now I haven't played those games and I know that they owe Thief their existence but in the spirit of keeping an open mind; Is there nothing Thief can learn from modern games? I'm not saying Thief needs to become a stabby, spell spamming action fest but is it a perfect, immutable entity as it is? Does Thief have nothing to learn about dodge mechanics, use of disguises or underwater interaction?
So anyone looking at the situation reasonably should be holding off on judgement until the game is before them, yet we find ourselves adrift in a sea of butthurt and disdain; why?
Now no fan following is free of reactionary purists, pouring scorn on all new releases simply because they are...well, new. There may be legitimate dislike for the direction modern gaming has gone and it must be galling to see something you love 'whored out' by those you see as having no appreciation of its best qualities. Is thief simply the sacred cow we never wanted to see suffer the cash-in, 'gritty', grey & brown reboot treatment? Or is it that, instead of actually disliking a game we haven't played what we are in fact railing against is a gaming culture/industry that we feel let down by in general?
Coming back to an earlier point I think what gamers do want from their latest instalments is "the same but different." However the industry has taken only wrong interpretations from that. It doesn't mean that consumers are entitled idiots that don't know what they really want, nor does it mean that gamers want the exact same experience with flashier visuals. DS hemmed the player in to accommodate Havok Physics and a modded mark 2 Unreal Engine where players would have welcomed sub-console level visuals for more gameplay options than they had in TMA; underwater combat, more challenging/intuitive guard AI, losing the immersion breaking ability to frob things well out of the reach of your outstretched sword arm.
I know that when I played Bioshock Infinite (only current gen game I own at present) that I would have happily traded the flashy visuals for a greater ability to interact and explore the environment away from linear paths, loading screens or rendering lag.
I think NuThief has fallen into the same pitfall; limiting the players ability (compared to even TDP) to interact with and immerse themselves in the environment to accommodate current gen visuals.
I don't think I'm alone when I say I stopped being impressed with cgi about a decade ago and can't recall ever seeking it out as a reason to buy a game or not. Now it is a broadly positive human attribute to constantly seek to better oneself, particularly when in competition with ones peers but the video game industry seems to have become locked in a system of putting the cart of graphics/spectacle before the horse of gameplay/immersion.
Now I realise that in one breath I've exhorted people to wait and finally judge EM's Thief after it has been released and they can play it for themselves while in the next pointing out all the reasons the current climate of game development is going to make it suck. My object in starting this diatribe (a while ago now) was to examine some of the reasoning behind the anxiety I and many of the Thief fan community feel towards this upcoming title. Sorry for the pop-psychology "It's not your job you're mad it, it's your father" but that's the conclusion I've come to for myself. Disagree? Have a counter-point? I invite all discussion in the replies (It'll at least show me if anyone was masochistic enough to read this all the way through).
I've rambled on like an academic so I might as well reference some supporting sources;
Here's a direct quote from theescapistmagazine's own Ben "Yahtzee" Croshaw from his Extra Punctuation column:
"...Already triple-A games are so expensive to create that developers are creatively stifled and even the highest-profile releases routinely lose money, but obliviously the next-gen consoles crank the technology dial up even further, adding a few more hazardous rungs to the ladder leading into the big boys' treehouse. Making the usual demands that the games crowbar in some use of whatever hardware gimmick they have deluded themselves into thinking is a selling point. (Unlike)... the shift from 16 bit to 32 bit, graphics and physics tech do not need to get any better to allow creators to realise their visions, and being obliged to work in the highest quality graphics possible is already stifling and expensive."
Here too an examination of how the videogame industry has become the New Hollywood in terms of anti-consumer practice and venal tunnel vision from Games Journalist MrBTongue:
(
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6TmTv6deTI)
(It's 20mins long so it might be a bit much after my textgasm but definitely check it out at some point. While it focusses on EA in general it's a great insight into how the games industry has changed and why the budgets of modern games are insane).
I know a minor-celebrity game reviewer and a Youtube D-list personality, hardly the stuff of academic rigour but then we're just talking about videogames; aren't you giving this too much thought? :cheeky:
To anyone who read this all the way through I apologise and to anyone who fell asleep part of the way in you should feel no shame...I think I'll start posting more regularly to avoid this blue-balled buildup of observations/theories. Hope it gave some people food for thought (or thoughts of food) and ammunition to use in other forum threads.
Now I know how Jtr7 must feel...
samIamsad on 17/8/2013 at 20:55
To me personally it's fairly simple as to why I'm rather reserved about this. I'm not one who's opposed to the idea of a reboot, or all that keen on "more of the same, but slightly different" kind of experience. From all that's being published however, Thief mimics the franchises most obvious trappings: You''re going to play a thief, Garrett, you get to steal and sneak around, you've got shadows to hide and guards to avoid in The City, and so forth. However, whilst all of that is well and great when done right, on the most fundamental level, there's more to Thief of old than this.
Recently the news of you not being able to jump yourself caused frustration and backlash. And whilst developers, some press and community managers may quickly feel the need to address and ease off worries, there is something they fundamentally don't understand. It is that this isn't about you not being able to jump per at all, it's that this was the latest in a series of promotion videos, developer statements and preview articles in which it is was made clear that the Eidos Montreal team are currently developing in fundamentally different directions and employing fundamentally different design philosophies than the company that spawned the original Thief as its swan song, it being the result of a long line of steady progress which contemporary press used to hail as a peak into the future of "real virtual reality" on occasion. The new Thief looks just like any other contemporary AAA video game, employing the very same design fundamentals Looking Glass Technologies used to battle and rally and fight against, but is given the coating of what has turned from a single title into a wholly Thief franchise.
And whilst that may still hold a good game in there, it is thus understandable that some fans may be a little less excited than Square Enix had anticipated.
jtbalogh on 17/8/2013 at 21:52
Your concept only works for games that churn out sequels every few years. It is a healthy cycle to wait when its done as you say to raise issues for the next sequel to get better. However, your concept falls short when it takes 10 years to make another game thief. In the case of thief, there is no cycle to wait patiently and raise issues. All we have is to cram both patience and criticism simultaneously into one project before all of the energy and ideas are lost for another 10 years. Confusing? Multitasking is a trait humans do have.
Shinrazero on 18/8/2013 at 01:38
Allow me to preface this with I love games. Unfortunately, games these days stick to a set of homogeneous design choices I abhor. That being said, the gripes I have with nuthaif are not exclusive. Much of the things I dislike are routinely found in other games of the AAA caliber. Limited movement, taking the controls away from players, quick time events, hand holding, handicaps, achievements for doing nothing, emphasis on narrative instead of gameplay, the list goes. Your example of Bioshock Infinite is a perfect illustration of what really grinds my gears with modern gaming, narrative and graphics having precedence over substantive gameplay. In the end I thought it looked beautiful and had a fairly interesting story but the gameplay was abysmal.
The Last of Us is another game that is lauded but I felt the hype didn't parallel mediocre gameplay. Speaking of hype, this is another part of the AAA experience I really dislike. When purchasing a game, I know many rely on reviews and sites like metacritic but ever notice how every single AAA game is advertised heavily with review scores? We are expected to be hyped, to preorder, and play the game and enjoy it. Why? Because the CGI trailers look amazing! Because it's "THE NEW HOT GAME!" because Game Informer and IGN gave it a solid 10! To use Infinite as an example, I felt I ended up getting the same game I played when it was called Bioshock and Bioshock 2.
So here we are, on our loving TTLG boards discussing the new Thief game and people are pissed. Why? Because this is Thief! The beloved series of so many taffers. The very site we're on is a shrine to the fine work that LGS put out. We all have stories of how we came to Thief and its positive impact on our lives. For some, it has been means of escape during dark times, others, a tool to keep their minds sharp, but above all, it is a damn fun game and there is nothing quite like it. To me, that is pretty powerful for a video game to resonate in so many different ways.
So when I see my beloved series pigeon holed into another forgettable AAA title, it sucks. We have been patient, its been nearly a decade since we've had a new Thief game. We buzzed with excitement, dissecting every minutiae of detail we can find but it has been one crushing blow after another. Things that made the series unique and fresh are set aside of safety, what sells the most. Even so, we've learned details and discussed and fought and gotten angry with each other. Even the most stalwart of optimists are treading ever so cautiously, disenchanted.
Could nuthief be fun? Perhaps. Will it be Thief? Unlikely. With what they've shown and the design choices they are implementing, notably context movement, has all but killed any faith that the game will live up to its predecessors. I know the community manager recently tried to address the gripes we have with contextual movement with a lengthy, condescending, backlash at the very people he should be enticing. We are their paychecks but our complaints are meant with indignation.
Eidos Montreal is asking us to settle for what they are putting out and frankly I'm really tired of settling.
