Renegen on 6/7/2006 at 02:12
Iran is a democracy, there're descendants of the Perse. They're not a rogue state by any means.
demagogue on 6/7/2006 at 02:35
Iran is an Islamic Republic in which ultimate power is vested in the Ayatollah, who also has veto power over all other gov't decisionmakers, without any credible democratic check. I don't know how *less* democratic it could be. And the Perse tradition you mention is of course the first thing the Revolution wanted to do away with as oppressive (although now getting them into trouble, but that's another story). Also, all of their "elections" end up with 99% returns for a pre-selected candidate among a field of candidates anyway all within the same party, with many parties banned; even the "democratic" parts aren't credibly democratic. Maybe you are taking their constitution more seriously than they do, or are thinking of another meaning of "democratic", which is admittedly a pretty useless word now-a-days.
As for "rogue" status, one of the usual definitions is a State that proactively sponsors terrorism within other States, in which category Iran easily fits. One could come up with other definitions, but this is the one which raises arguments of special status.
Are we talking about the same Iran?
Or am I not getting the joke?
Renegen on 6/7/2006 at 03:47
No I'm not joking, I don't think Iran is as bad as you're describing it to be. The veto power of the religious leader isn't such a big thing, doesn't the Queen of England have veto power? And it can't do anything else besides vetoing a decision, no different than a 50/50 split senate, all who have their own self interest in hand as well. Whatever meaning 'democratic' has is better than 'dictatorship', I'm sure all their clever ruses are to throw people off their real intentions, all the bad countries get away with it..
And about Iran being labelled as a rogue state, what kind of terrorists are they harboring? They did have some Al-Qaeda in their borders who were hiding, but they're not a terrorist cell, this is just due from their geographical location. In fact they don't follow the other arab states either, they are very different from the other countries in the region.
Strangeblue on 6/7/2006 at 04:11
a simple fireworks and booze thread turns into a heated discussion about missles and politics. :rolleyes:
Cookie Dough on 6/7/2006 at 04:23
it's the booze.
tungsten on 6/7/2006 at 04:50
Quote Posted by demagogue
[...]some of the missles flew within Japanese airspace and fell into its EEZ (exclusive economic zone),
[...]So actually the US does have some right to proportionally respond in Japan's
self defense. [...]
Point 1: the Japanese EEZ is highly disputed, e.g. that South Korea and Japan both claim to "own" some rubble in the sea (which does spread the controlling country's eez drastically over a wide area of the sea of Japan...).
Point 2: I do hope that is a typo there. These soldiers that rape schoolchildren and kill old women are NOT Japanese (although Japan pays a lot for them). That's most far from "self-defense". You can't get much farther from the term when you're talking about defending another country. Otherwise you also have to stand to the fact that you indeed occupy that country since the 1940ies, without making it part of your own country....
Scots Taffer on 6/7/2006 at 05:41
So, whichever way you look at, American Independence ultimately revolves around Foreign Policy!
Agent Monkeysee on 6/7/2006 at 05:50
Quote Posted by Renegen
And about Iran being labelled as a rogue state, what kind of terrorists are they harboring? They did have some Al-Qaeda in their borders who were hiding, but they're not a terrorist cell, this is just due from their geographical location. In fact they don't follow the other arab states either, they are very different from the other countries in the region.
Haha readup on your history, boy. Iran has been an acknowledged backer of terrorist organizations since the Islamic revolution. They had connections to practically every Middle-Eastern bombing and hijacking from the '70s to the '90s.
They're also not Arab, they're Persian, so it's not particularly notable that they "don't follow the other arab states".
HipBreaker on 6/7/2006 at 06:13
Yeah lets blow stuff up, not each other. Some douche bags almost blew up my friend and me up watching fire works on the beach because their uber expensive giant firework exploded on the ground at our feet. Other than that it was cool.
Renegen on 6/7/2006 at 06:27
Quote Posted by Agent Monkeysee
Haha readup on your history, boy. Iran has been an acknowledged backer of terrorist organizations since the Islamic revolution. They had connections to practically every Middle-Eastern bombing and hijacking from the '70s to the '90s.
They're also not Arab, they're Persian, so it's not particularly notable that they "don't follow the other arab states".
But yesterday does not equal today..and they had funding from the US. Considering all the dangerous terrorist groups in the region are arab, it is relevant they're persian. Still just like you say they might have a stronger link to terrorism.
