Oh my god. They've done it. This takes all rights away.

ercles on 22/10/2006 at 07:42

Quote Posted by sparhawk

Actually I already feared similar since several years now. If you look at the news here in Germany, then the tendency is pretty similar. Terrorism is used to frighten people and a lot of people already believe it is threat, even though there was not a single attack in many years (of course it will be claimed this is so because of the good anti-terror measures :( ).

I honestly don't understand why people voted for Bush a second time. It was bad enough the first time and a big step backward, but this is taking it to the extremes. And this is only the beginning ...

Michael Moore: 1

Forming your own opinion: 0

Shakey-Lo on 22/10/2006 at 13:54

lol, so anybody who voices any sort of anti-bush opinion is just a blind sheep basing their entire argument on Michael Moore? :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

BEAR on 22/10/2006 at 22:11

Obviously, I mean Michael Moore is the only person who has ever spoken out against bush.

Shakey-Lo on 23/10/2006 at 10:27

well, now there's sparhawk too.

sparhawk on 23/10/2006 at 12:53

Quote Posted by Shakey-Lo

well, now there's sparhawk too.

Watching what laws are trying to get passed, and how the media presents the case is more then enough to speak against Bush.

But if you are so afraid of terrorists, it's a good idea to keep giving up your freedom and liberties. The terrorists will laugh their ass off, because they achieved what they set out to do.

And while we are at it. If terrorists are such a threat, I wonder where more people die from per year. Terrorism, traffic, cancer, etc.

Convict on 23/10/2006 at 13:19

Quote Posted by sparhawk

But if you are so afraid of terrorists, it's a good idea to keep giving up your freedom and liberties. The terrorists will laugh their ass off, because they achieved what they set out to do.

I'm not that knowledgable about terrorists but I question if their motivation for suicide bombing is to get you give up freedoms. I might hazard some guesses including it being revenge/punishment/war thinking.

Jeshibu on 23/10/2006 at 13:28

Quote Posted by Convict

I don't know man, but if I hated a country and its people, and my actions helped establish some sort of gestapo in that country, I'd be pretty pleased. Not that there's anything close to the gestapo there... yet.

Chimpy Chompy on 23/10/2006 at 14:17

I imagine the Islamists would indeed like Britain (for example) to be a less free place. But by that I mean everyone living by sharia and bowing before their version of god. Which stuff like ID cards, police searches, security cameras etc aren't going to bring about.

So, whilst authoritarian measures are highly questionable, I don't think "it's doing the terrorist's work for them" is the correct way of arguing against them.

[edit]ok 10 seconds after posting that I'm not so sure. I guess what I'm thinking is, Big Blair's Police state still wouldn't be anywhere near an ideal situation for the terrorists. But, er, it would still suck for the rest of us. Just not suck as much as Islamist-ideal-o-theocracy. Probably.

SD on 23/10/2006 at 15:18

Quote Posted by Chimpy Chompy

I guess what I'm thinking is, Big Blair's Police state still wouldn't be anywhere near an ideal situation for the terrorists. But, er, it would still suck for the rest of us. Just not suck as much as Islamist-ideal-o-theocracy. Probably.

Of course, it's not an either/or situation between police state and Islamist theocracy ;). We can still retain all the trimmings of a full, open liberal democracy and remain relatively terror free - if we stop sticking our oar in where it isn't wanted.

In fact, most democracies in the world manage to flourish without being under the threat of terrorist attacks (you won't ever hear of suicide bombers in Sweden or Finland, for example).

But with every measure that pushes us towards a police state, we erode a little bit of the foundations of what makes us better than them. So while terrorists in general aren't explicitly trying to bring down our democratic institutions because they "hate freedom", it's certainly a happy side-effect for them.

Rug Burn Junky on 23/10/2006 at 15:30

Did you entirely miss Chimpy's point? Are you even reading the same conversation?

On one hand we have "Freedom" and on the other we have "Authoritarianism."

All Chimpy was saying is that just because "Big Brother Police State" and "Islam-o-Wonderland" are both on the Authoritarian side, doesn't mean that they're the same thing.

Nobody said that those were the only options, you stupid strawmanning fuck.